Arm reference board?

By: Simon Farnsworth (simon.delete@this.farnz.org.uk), February 28, 2019 12:34 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Paul A. Clayton (paaronclayton.delete@this.gmail.com) on February 27, 2019 6:06 pm wrote:
> Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on February 27, 2019 3:04 pm wrote:
> > Paul A. Clayton (paaronclayton.delete@this.gmail.com) on February 27, 2019 1:32 pm wrote:
> > > An arms dealer selling mercenary services as well as effective weapons and training would not
> > > be that much more an economic threat to a mercenary company than one that selling just weapons
> > > and training when anyone can get good recruits. For ARM's licensees, fab technology is not
> > > a distinguishing factor ("anyone can get good recruits"). If ARM's design offerings become
> > > "good enough" (and complete enough), ARM effectively becomes an indirect competitor.
> >
> >
> > But ARM doesn't sell a complete SoC, they sell a CPU and a GPU. Modern SoCs have so much more than that,
> > and you cannot be successful with just those elements. That's like your hypothetical arms dealer selling
> > only AK47s and cartridges, while your mercenary companies can not only supply well trained soldiers but
> > everything from land mines to rocket launchers to helicopters armed with depleted uranium rounds.
>
> First, I did include "complete enough". Second, if ARM can license design components to produce a server/personal
> computer processor (which is the hardware competition of concern in this thread, I think), ARM could
> probably acquire the right to sub-license such design components and optimized hardenings of them,
> which could then be provided to a company making server/personal computer processors. ARM seems to
> want to become a one-stop shop for design components for a substantial portion of the semiconductor
> market. ARM also seems to want to make using ARM design components as easy as possible with low time-to-market
> and low risk (Processor Optimization Packs). While it is a significant extrapolation to go from these
> tendencies to ARM providing "Chip Optimization Packs", it does not seem more unreasonable than the
> technical issues with ARM producing a processor chip for sale.
>
> The economic impact to companies making ARM server/personal computer processor chips of ARM
> providing a ChOP for such a chip would not be that different than ARM developing such and using
> the ChOP to produce its own chips for sale as well as licensing the ChOP to others.
>
> I doubt ARM will be selling hardware any time soon (it already has enough concerns even with the recent
> influx of capital), but if it did I tend to agree with Michael S that "most of their customers either wouldn't
> object ... or object silently with no visible effects". It seems the options are RISC-V, an internal ISA,
> or ARM. RISC-V is still immature (it may dominate the "microcontroller" market before ARM has a substantial
> server presence, but I suspect it will be a while before it is as broadly used as ARM is now), and RISC-V
> is a threat to ARM regardless of how much ARM competes in server/personal computer hardware. Apple might
> adopt an internal ISA, but the other ARM customers seem to recognize a benefit from a shared software ecosystem
> (even though as a rising tide it raises all boats, i.e., helps competitors).
>
> If ARM customers continue to fail to provide good developer systems, ARM might be pushed into
> selling hardware. (At least that seems to be the theory behind the suggestion.) I am skeptical
> that ARM would develop a good personal computer/entry-level server processor chip and motherboard
> reference designs (that would probably be enough for multiple companies to make and sell systems),
> but ARM has announced plans for higher performance cores and better "uncore" designs.

It is also not beyond the wit of Arm to fabricate a design and only supply it on boards that (while reasonably priced compared to x86 for what they are) are massively overkill for most people - e.g. a 32t (either 32c or 16c/32t design) CPU running at 3.5 to 4.5 GHz with 4 DDR4 channels and 64 PCIe lanes from the CPU, supplied on a motherboard exposing all CPU memory channels to DIMM slots and all PCIe lanes to expansion card slots (M.2, PCIe x16 etc) at around $1,200 in one of the ATX form factors.

You could even make it customer-friendly by offering your customers access to the full design of this board - from motherboard schematics and PCB layouts down to how Arm puts together the SoC that they used on the board.

This is a reasonable price compared to an equivalent Intel or AMD system (it's about the same as you'd pay for a Threadripper 2950X at comparable clocks with a motherboard to use it all), it's something you can build a workstation around to get you an ARM desktop setup, and it's not directly competing with any Arm customers - and it's something they can start from and evolve into a server design, or a client design, or something more suited to real users.
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ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/20 08:35 AM
  ARM announces AresAdrian2019/02/20 08:39 AM
    ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 10:03 AM
      ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/20 10:41 AM
        ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 12:49 PM
          ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/20 01:21 PM
            ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 02:01 PM
              ARM announces AresWilco2019/02/20 02:31 PM
                ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 03:16 PM
                  ARM announces AresWilco2019/02/20 03:49 PM
                    ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 04:09 PM
                      ARM announces AresWilco2019/02/20 04:45 PM
                        ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/20 04:55 PM
                          ARM announces AresDan Fay2019/02/20 05:44 PM
                            ARM announces AresWilco2019/02/20 07:06 PM
                              ARM announces AresDan Fay2019/02/21 08:27 AM
                        ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 05:49 PM
                          ARM announces AresWilco2019/02/20 06:40 PM
                            ARM announces AresCharles2019/02/21 02:16 AM
                              ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 02:26 AM
                        ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/20 08:55 PM
                          ARM announces AresJS2019/02/21 12:59 AM
                            *has not hasn't (NT)JS2019/02/21 01:01 AM
                            ARM announces AresSalvatore De Dominicis2019/02/21 07:05 AM
                        Definitions of RISCBrendan2019/02/21 10:07 AM
                          Definitions of RISCMichael S2019/02/21 10:16 AM
                          PDP-8 Not Usually Considered RISCMark Roulo2019/02/21 02:10 PM
                            PDP-8 Not Usually Considered RISCrwessel2019/02/21 07:13 PM
                          Definitions of RISCAdrian2019/02/21 02:42 PM
                            Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)wumpus2019/02/21 06:29 PM
                              Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)none2019/02/22 12:32 AM
                                Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)Michael S2019/02/22 04:28 AM
                                  Definitions of RISC (nod to John Mashey and comp.arch)none2019/02/22 08:01 AM
  ARM announces Areslockederboss2019/02/20 09:56 AM
    stability? (NT)anonymous22019/02/20 10:01 AM
    ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 10:05 AM
    ARM announces AresGroo2019/02/20 10:11 AM
    ARM announces AresAndrei Frumusanu2019/02/20 11:49 AM
  ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/20 10:36 AM
    ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/20 10:54 AM
    ARM announces AresGeoff Langdale2019/02/20 03:07 PM
      ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 03:32 PM
      ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/21 12:03 AM
        That last line should have been removed :-) (NT)none2019/02/21 12:04 AM
        ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 01:47 AM
          ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/21 03:59 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 04:45 AM
            ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/21 05:18 AM
              ARM announces AresSimon Farnsworth2019/02/22 09:43 AM
    ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/20 09:27 PM
      ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 01:53 AM
        ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/21 09:03 AM
          ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 09:35 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 09:51 AM
            ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/21 02:40 PM
            ARM announces Aresaaron spink2019/02/21 03:56 PM
            ARM announces AresLinus Torvalds2019/02/21 04:27 PM
              ARM announces AresStoffels2019/02/22 12:21 AM
                ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/22 04:15 AM
                  ARM announces AresSimon Farnsworth2019/02/22 09:41 AM
                    ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/22 10:30 AM
                    In other words: nobody will ever get fired for choosing x86 (NT)Gabriele Svelto2019/02/24 01:32 PM
                      In other words: nobody will ever get fired for choosing x86Simon Farnsworth2019/02/25 04:53 AM
              ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/22 02:52 AM
              ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/24 01:31 PM
                ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/25 03:57 AM
                  ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/25 04:21 AM
                    ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/25 04:58 AM
                      ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/25 05:21 AM
                        ARM announces AresAdrian2019/02/26 08:02 AM
                    ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/26 12:32 AM
                      ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/26 12:14 PM
                      ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 05:34 PM
                    ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/26 01:34 AM
                      ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/26 12:16 PM
                        ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/27 12:19 AM
              ARM announces Aresend of an era2019/02/24 03:18 PM
                Word salad bot strikes again (NT)nanon2019/02/25 12:26 AM
                ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/25 02:10 AM
                  ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/25 02:52 AM
                    ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/25 10:48 AM
                      ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/25 02:07 PM
                      ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/26 12:38 AM
                    ARM announces AresJohn Yates2019/02/26 03:43 PM
              ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 06:55 AM
              ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 05:22 PM
            ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 04:54 PM
              ARMY announces Aresdmcq2019/03/20 03:12 AM
                ARMY announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/20 05:47 AM
                  ARMY announces Aresdmcq2019/03/20 06:05 AM
          ARM announces AresGroo2019/02/21 10:23 AM
            ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 10:29 AM
              ARM announces AresDavid Hess2019/03/19 05:44 PM
            ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/21 11:52 AM
            ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/21 08:19 PM
              ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/22 03:40 AM
          software ecosystemsRichardC2019/02/21 04:31 PM
            software ecosystemsFoo_2019/02/22 03:15 AM
          ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/21 05:31 PM
            + on hyperscalingdmcq2019/02/22 08:23 AM
              + on hyperscalingMaynard Handley2019/02/22 08:38 AM
                + on hyperscalingjuanrga2019/02/22 11:57 AM
            + on hyperscalingdmcq2019/02/22 08:23 AM
              sorry duplicatedmcq2019/02/22 08:26 AM
          ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/21 08:34 PM
            ARM announces AresBrett2019/02/21 10:20 PM
          ARM announces AresA. Wilcox2019/02/22 03:52 PM
  ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/20 03:30 PM
    ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/20 04:14 PM
      ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/21 08:40 AM
        ARM announces Aresaaron spink2019/02/21 04:05 PM
        ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/22 08:48 AM
  ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/21 02:28 AM
    ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/21 03:25 AM
      ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/22 04:09 AM
      ARM announces AresMaynard Handley2019/02/22 08:51 AM
        ARM announces AresDavid Soul2019/02/22 11:47 AM
          ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/02/22 12:23 PM
            Chicken or egg, both.Brett2019/02/22 02:21 PM
              Chicken or egg, both.David Soul2019/02/22 06:05 PM
                Chicken or egg, both.Brett2019/02/22 09:55 PM
                  ARM salesjuanrga2019/02/23 03:55 AM
                    ARM salesaaron spink2019/02/23 08:47 AM
                Chicken or egg, both.Ronald Maas2019/02/23 06:33 PM
                  Chicken or egg, both.Magagop2019/02/24 11:18 PM
                    why not? (NT)Michael S2019/02/25 02:03 AM
                      why not?Not the parent2019/02/25 10:36 AM
                        why not?Michael S2019/02/25 10:43 AM
                          why not?dmcq2019/02/25 11:35 AM
                            why not?Michael S2019/02/25 12:03 PM
                              why not?dmcq2019/02/25 12:29 PM
                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/26 10:08 AM
                                why not?Doug S2019/02/26 12:05 PM
                                  why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 04:51 AM
                                    why not?Doug S2019/02/27 12:15 PM
                                      why not?Not the parent2019/02/28 01:43 AM
                                why not?anon2019/02/26 11:22 PM
                                  why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 04:59 AM
                                    why not?anon2019/02/27 06:42 AM
                                      why not?Magagop2019/02/27 03:31 PM
                                        why not?anon2019/02/27 05:02 PM
                                          why not?dmcq2019/02/27 05:25 PM
                                            why not?anon2019/02/27 05:56 PM
                                              why not?dmcq2019/02/27 06:19 PM
                                                why not?anon2019/02/27 06:46 PM
                                                  why not?Wilco2019/02/28 05:49 AM
                                                    why not?Jukka Larja2019/02/28 07:02 AM
                                                      why not?Michael S2019/02/28 08:32 AM
                                                      why not?Wilco2019/02/28 09:40 AM
                                                      why not?Doug S2019/02/28 10:13 AM
                                                        why not?Foo_2019/03/01 07:35 AM
                                                          why not?Doug S2019/03/01 11:05 AM
                                                            why not?anon2019/03/01 02:32 PM
                                                              why not?dmcq2019/03/01 03:13 PM
                                                                why not?anon2019/03/01 04:13 PM
                                                                  why not?dmcq2019/03/02 03:56 AM
                                                                    why not?anon2019/03/02 10:09 AM
                                                                      why not?dmcq2019/03/02 10:41 AM
                                                                        why not?anon2019/03/02 12:19 PM
                                                                          why not?dmcq2019/03/03 03:48 AM
                                                                      why not?Doug S2019/03/02 04:53 PM
                                                                        why not?Michael S2019/03/02 05:06 PM
                                                                          why not?Doug S2019/03/03 12:54 AM
                                                                            why not?Michael S2019/03/03 02:58 AM
                                                                              why not?anon2019/03/03 05:35 AM
                                                                                why not?dmcq2019/03/03 06:33 AM
                                                                                  I considired dry humor a Brittish specialty. It seems, I was wrong about it. (NT)Michael S2019/03/03 06:39 AM
                                                                                  why not?anon2019/03/03 10:13 AM
                                                                                    why not?Michael S2019/03/03 12:41 PM
                                                                                      why not?dmcq2019/03/03 01:21 PM
                                                                                        why not?anon2019/03/03 04:15 PM
                                                    why not?anon2019/02/28 08:38 PM
                                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/28 01:48 AM
                                                strawman (NT)anon2019/02/28 08:31 PM
                            why not?Michael S2019/02/27 03:53 AM
                              why not?Not the parent2019/02/27 05:26 AM
                                why not?Michael S2019/02/27 05:42 AM
                              why not?dmcq2019/02/27 05:49 AM
                                why not?Michael S2019/02/27 06:21 AM
                                  why not?dmcq2019/02/27 07:15 AM
                                Selling at multiple layersPaul A. Clayton2019/02/27 11:25 AM
                                  Selling at multiple layersDoug S2019/02/27 12:45 PM
                                    Selling at multiple layersPaul A. Clayton2019/02/27 02:32 PM
                                      Selling at multiple layersDoug S2019/02/27 04:04 PM
                                        Paul A. Clayton2019/02/27 07:06 PM
                                          Arm reference board?Simon Farnsworth2019/02/28 12:34 PM
                                why not?Doug S2019/02/27 12:46 PM
                      why not? (NT)la mama de murgay2019/02/25 10:22 PM
                    Chicken or egg, both.Ronald Maas2019/02/25 01:23 PM
            ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/24 03:07 PM
              ARM announces Aresjuanrga2019/03/02 05:40 AM
                ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 08:08 AM
                  ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/03/02 10:10 AM
          ARM announces Areshobel2019/02/22 04:33 PM
            ARM announces AresDavid Soul2019/02/22 06:20 PM
              TrollDoug S2019/02/23 01:37 AM
                TrollDavid Soul2019/02/23 08:59 AM
              ARM announces AresEnnis2019/02/23 02:18 AM
                ARM announces AresFoo_2019/02/23 02:38 AM
                  ARM announces Aresanon2019/02/23 03:46 AM
                ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/23 05:41 AM
  ARM announces Aresnobody in particular2019/02/26 03:58 AM
    expensiveanonymous22019/02/27 12:46 AM
    ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 07:19 AM
      ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 07:21 AM
        ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 07:57 AM
        ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/27 08:11 AM
          ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/27 08:16 AM
            ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/27 12:49 PM
              ARM announces AresMichael S2019/02/27 01:43 PM
                ARM announces AresDoug S2019/02/27 04:06 PM
                  ARM announces AresGian-Carlo Pascutto2019/02/28 05:00 AM
                ARM announces AresGian-Carlo Pascutto2019/02/28 05:02 AM
                  ARM announces AresMichael S2019/03/01 03:47 AM
                    death by a thousand cutsMichael S2019/03/01 07:27 AM
                      death by a thousand cutsFoo_2019/03/01 07:37 AM
                        death by a thousand cutsdmcq2019/03/01 12:10 PM
              ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/28 06:31 AM
                ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/28 09:17 AM
                  ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/02/28 03:02 PM
                    ARM announces Aresaaron spink2019/03/01 01:19 AM
                ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/28 11:32 AM
                  ARM announces AresAndrew Clough2019/02/28 11:33 AM
                  ARM announces AresFoo_2019/03/01 01:55 AM
                  ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/03/01 05:40 AM
          ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 08:45 AM
            ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 09:17 AM
              ARM announces Aresdmcq2019/02/27 09:21 AM
                ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/27 04:03 PM
            ARM announces AresJukka Larja2019/02/28 06:03 AM
      ARM announces Aresnone2019/02/27 11:49 PM
        ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/02/28 04:26 AM
          ARM announces AresPeter E. Fry2019/02/28 07:31 PM
            ARM announces AresAdrian2019/02/28 10:09 PM
            ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 12:56 AM
              ARM announces AresHoward Chu2019/03/02 10:05 AM
                ARM announces AresGabriele Svelto2019/03/02 02:31 PM
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