Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStation

By: Jukka Larja (roskakori2006.delete@this.gmail.com), April 21, 2019 9:18 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
pgerassi (pgerassi2012.delete@this.wi.rr.com) on April 21, 2019 6:56 pm wrote:
> Jukka Larja (roskakori2006.delete@this.gmail.com) on April 21, 2019 7:45 am wrote:
> > Blue (Blue.delete@this.blue.com) on April 21, 2019 3:25 am wrote:
> > > Jukka Larja (roskakori2006.delete@this.gmail.com) on April 20, 2019 9:29 pm wrote:
> > > > blue (blue.delete@this.blue.com) on April 20, 2019 8:29 pm wrote:
> > > > > David Hess (davidwhess.delete@this.gmail.com) on April 20, 2019 7:29 pm wrote:
> > > > > > Andrew Clough (someone.delete@this.somewhere.com) on April 17, 2019 10:21 am wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm sort of surprised that made much of a different. The hybrid drive benchmarks I saw didn't tend to look
> > > > > > > much better than the raw underlying drive, though going from 5400 to 7200 obliviously makes a difference.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hybrid drives have always disappointed. I wonder if it is because caching
> > > > > > through the OS can preferentially work on metadata and the smallest files.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Isn't Apple's hybrid solution viewed as being okay?
> > > > >
> > > > > I've not a clue, but that probably would be the best starting point for determining how well
> > > > > Sony could make it work. As Apple is the closest to console like integration in the PC space?
> > > >
> > > > In my (admittably narrow) experience it was OK if your data set was smaller (by some margin) than
> > > > the cache drive. For example, compiling code worked great, because source files and temporary files
> > > > fit to SSD. Getting an SVN update for much larger binary data was
> > > > go-and-get-a-cup-of-tea-then-start-working-on-something-else
> > > > slow though. It was probably great for "average user".
> > > >
> > > > I think a less transparent solution would work better for game
> > > > console, unless the base line is a console without SSD.
> > > >
> > > > -JLarja
> > >
> > > Given it would be a fixed hardware spec with a target read performance,
> > > if seems like the “slow” usage cases would be avoided.
> > >
> > > I would rather just a larger SSD, but I don’t see how an SSD+HDD
> > > would be technically limitation, unless the SSD was tiny.
> > >
> > > even 256GB would be enough—although not ideal.
> > >
> > > Was thinking like:
> > > Core OS+formatting brings usable space down to 200GN
> > > 50-75GB for loading everything game being played in.
> > > 125-150GB for keeping most often or last played games core assets.
> > >
> > > It does have the problem of the first time you fire up a game in a long time being
> > > slow(er) but most people in my experience only play 1-3 games very often.
> > >
> > > __Again, I would rather just a large SSD.__
> > > Just, if Apple made it work decent on a semi-closed platform, don’t
> > > see why Sony couldn’t make it work on a fully closed platform.
> >
> > Like I said, it worked great if work with dataset smaller than the SSD. So if we presume games are
> > around 100 GBs or less, then 250 GBs would be plenty for two games and OS files. But if game is 400
> > GBs, then it probably won't matter much if the cache is 32 or 200 GBs. Developer can't presume that
> > any particular asset will stay in SSD storage (ready to be streamed in fast). Some manual caching
> > API could be set up, but most games would just abuse that as much as possible (because who in their
> > right mind would think about some competing game when deciding how much cache to reserve).
> >
> > -JLarja
>
> I have two PCs that I use for gaming. The older one, a 1090T PHIIx6 with 16GB DDR3-1600, a Radeon 290X
> 4GB at 1050MHz, a 120GB primary OS SSD, a 480GB games/video SSD, and about 31TB of HDs with a Full HD
> 28" LG IPS 60Hz monitor and a 42" 4K IPS 60Hz monitor for gaming. That is really my fileserver now and
> used mostly for video watching and surfing. My "new" gaming PC is a Ryzen 1700 on a X370 MB with 32GB
> pf DDR4-2400, 2x Sapphire 580 8GB at 1411MHz, a 512GB Intel Optane 600 NVMe PCIe 3.0x4 OS drive, a 1TB
> Mushkin Reactor SATA SSD, 42" 4K IPS 60Hz monitor, wired RGB gaming KB and Mouse, and Klipsch 170W THX
> 2.1 speakers each on a Cyberpower 1350W pure sine UPS. The former has about 60 games in its Steam area
> and 45 in the newer one. They take only 200GB in the older one and 250 GB in the newer one.
>
> During loading of the bigger games like GTV, it rarely goes above 250MB/s and averages about 1/3rd of that.
> So this talk of "needing" NVMe PCIe4.0 x4 speed is flat wrong. The 512GB Op600 drive isn't the fastest around
> at "just" 1,800MB/s read, 600MB/s write, and 110K 4KB read iops, but it was less than 50% of the cost of the
> others at $145. The 1TB SSD was $155. I did add an external 8TB Seagate USB3 drive for media storage at
> $149 to the new one and an internal LG 12x BR burner at $85 for both systems which can burn 4 layer 128GB
> BD disks. I do use the much cheaper 25GB single layer ones. Although an external USB3 HD makes far more
> sense being both cheaper and faster than optical backup. My 2TB oldest one still works (5yrs) and a 3TB one
> which the internal USB3/SATA controller died still works directly attached to a SATA3 port.
>
> Using the Op600 instead of the Muskin reduced less than 1 second from load times which is mostly in the noise
> and not noticeable except by "stopwatch". And the reads are a whole bunch of little files and a few "big" ones.
> Thus why SSDs are much faster than HDs for loading. I think that loading time is dominated by 1 thread of
> the CPU for these AAA titles instead of the 4-16 threads available on most systems. Thus a 512GB SATA3 SSD
> would be more than enough for 90+% of console gamers. Any more is overkill, mostly for marketing (and bragging)
> purposes. An off/on loading option to an external USB3 HD would be the cheapest and best solution to game size
> creep. Mine does 150-160MB/s for the first few TBs. 8TB is the current sweet spot (TB/$).

Although I mostly agree with the above (NVME and especially super fast NVME is in the real of diminishing returns), it's also a chicken and egg problem. Considering that even the AAA titles on PC must be playable (== load in reasonable time) from HDD, and any SSD will be faster anyway, there's little reason to optimize for that case. The very basic optimization of reading files with several threads, which can easily triple the reading speed on SATA SSD, is very bad for HDD, so there's the additional complexity of detecting when to use the optimization and when not.

As a real world example of optimization difference, our game editor, which holds assets in non-optimized form, can take several hours to start from USB2 HDD (last time I tried this was around five years ago, so error margins are large). From (SATA) SSD it typically starts in less than a minute, though a cold start may take two. If everyone had an SSD, there'd be little need to convert the assets to more optimal form (though it is "cleaner" to have one file instead of few hundred thousand).

I'm pretty sure that if any console gets a 4 GB/s storage as standard, it will be utilized above the 500 MB/s SATA 3 level. That said, dropping e.g. texture loading time from 4 seconds to 0.5 seconds isn't necessary even visible to user. The real benefit would be the ability to stream faster on the fly, but it's going to be tricky to setup sensibly, if you still need to support other platforms with slow HDDs.

-JLarja
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TopicPosted ByDate
Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationsleep2019/04/16 11:04 PM
  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDoug S2019/04/17 12:20 AM
  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAnon2019/04/17 01:18 AM
    Competing with streaming Anon2019/04/17 01:20 AM
      Competing with streaming David Hess2019/04/20 07:17 PM
        Competing with streaming Jukka Larja2019/04/20 09:23 PM
        Competing with streaming Anne O. Nymous2019/04/21 04:27 AM
        Competing with streaming Anne O. Nymous2019/04/21 04:28 AM
    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAndrew Clough2019/04/17 05:33 AM
      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationwumpus2019/04/17 09:08 AM
        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAndrew Clough2019/04/17 10:21 AM
          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/20 07:29 PM
            Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationblue2019/04/20 08:29 PM
              Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/20 09:29 PM
                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationBlue2019/04/21 03:25 AM
                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/21 07:45 AM
                    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationpgerassi2019/04/21 06:56 PM
                      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/21 09:18 PM
                        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationpgerassi2019/04/22 08:33 AM
                          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/22 09:54 AM
                            Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationpgerassi2019/04/22 11:45 PM
                              Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/23 07:36 AM
                                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationwumpus2019/04/23 08:06 AM
                                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/23 11:32 AM
                                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/28 05:46 PM
    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanother-anon2019/04/17 11:10 AM
    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/20 07:23 PM
      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/20 09:32 PM
  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationNoSpammer2019/04/17 03:50 AM
    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationwumpus2019/04/17 09:24 AM
      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/17 09:44 AM
        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDoug S2019/04/17 10:28 AM
          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 07:36 AM
            Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAaron Spink2019/04/18 08:55 AM
              Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 11:24 AM
                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationaaron spink2019/04/18 11:42 AM
                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 12:07 PM
                    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAaron Spink2019/04/18 02:32 PM
                      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 03:32 PM
                        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAaron Spink2019/04/18 03:41 PM
                          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/19 01:53 AM
                    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/20 08:14 PM
                      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/20 09:42 PM
                        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/28 05:52 PM
                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationPiedPiper2019/04/18 07:33 PM
                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/19 02:03 AM
                    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationwumpus2019/04/19 06:50 AM
                    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationaaron spink2019/04/19 07:25 AM
                      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/19 08:40 AM
            Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationjames2019/04/18 10:13 AM
              Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 11:39 AM
                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationaaron spink2019/04/18 11:46 AM
                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 03:22 PM
                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/20 08:34 PM
                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/20 09:48 PM
            Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDoug S2019/04/18 02:33 PM
              Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationsleep2019/04/18 06:38 PM
                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/20 08:27 PM
                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationsleep2019/04/21 03:07 AM
                    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/28 05:54 PM
        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAaron Spink2019/04/17 11:48 AM
          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 07:46 AM
            Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAaron Spink2019/04/18 09:05 AM
              Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 11:51 AM
                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAaron Spink2019/04/18 02:50 PM
                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 03:16 PM
                    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAaron Spink2019/04/18 03:36 PM
                      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/19 01:57 AM
                        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/19 02:18 AM
        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationwumpus2019/04/17 12:13 PM
          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 08:07 AM
      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/19 03:03 AM
        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationwumpus2019/04/19 07:40 AM
          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/19 08:29 AM
            Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationwumpus2019/04/19 05:38 PM
              Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationSimon Farnsworth2019/04/20 02:02 AM
        Why are you assuming it will even have an optical drive?Doug S2019/04/19 10:53 AM
          Why are you assuming it will even have an optical drive?Jukka Larja2019/04/19 12:19 PM
            Why are you assuming it will even have an optical drive?David Hess2019/04/20 08:45 PM
          the source article...blue2019/04/20 05:50 AM
            the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/20 07:29 AM
              the source article...wumpus2019/04/20 08:48 AM
                the source article...aaron spink2019/04/20 08:51 AM
                  the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/20 11:47 AM
              the source article...Groo2019/04/20 09:36 AM
                the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/20 12:08 PM
                  the source article...Groo2019/04/20 12:37 PM
                    the source article...Doug S2019/04/21 12:11 AM
                      the source article...Doug S2019/04/21 12:33 AM
                      the source article...Blue2019/04/21 03:30 AM
                        the source article...Doug S2019/04/21 10:08 AM
                          the source article...blue2019/04/23 12:36 AM
                            the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/23 08:27 AM
                              the source article...Brett2019/04/23 11:22 AM
                                the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/23 11:43 AM
                              the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/23 11:55 AM
                                the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/24 01:15 PM
                                  the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/25 05:53 AM
                                    the source article...none2019/04/25 06:14 AM
                                      the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/25 11:32 AM
                                    the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/25 07:06 AM
                                      the source article...anon2019/04/25 09:00 AM
                                        the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/25 12:12 PM
                                          the source article...anon2019/04/26 11:27 AM
                                      the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/25 11:40 AM
                                        the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/25 12:08 PM
                            the source article...Doug S2019/04/23 10:33 AM
                  the source article...David Hess2019/04/20 08:51 PM
                    the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/20 10:00 PM
                  the source article...gallier22019/04/24 12:01 AM
                    the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/24 05:25 AM
                the source article...David Hess2019/04/20 08:49 PM
                  the source article...Groo2019/04/21 07:41 AM
      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/20 08:19 PM
        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/20 10:15 PM
  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJose2019/04/17 10:00 PM
    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJose2019/04/18 03:33 AM
      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationdmcq2019/04/18 05:30 AM
        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJose2019/04/18 10:41 PM
    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/20 09:06 PM
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