Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStation

By: pgerassi (pgerassi2012.delete@this.wi.rr.com), April 22, 2019 11:45 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Jukka Larja (roskakori2006.delete@this.gmail.com) on April 22, 2019 9:54 am wrote:
> pgerassi (pgerassi2012.delete@this.wi.rr.com) on April 22, 2019 8:33 am wrote:
>
> > I did some quick checking on the Steam data directory on the old system. It had 213GB in 174K files in
> > 8K directories for 65 games. So the average file size is about 1.25MB. That is about 300 4K blocks each
> > file and 27MB in each directory. It also works out to 3.3GB per game in 2,600 files. A 15ms hard drive
> > with 160MB/s xfer rate spends about 21 seconds in reading and about 40 seconds in seeking. Cutting that
> > down to typical USB2.0 speeds of 50MB/s yields 66 seconds in xfer and the same 40 seconds in seeking.
> > So going from USB2.0 to 3.0 on a 8TB drive (internally its a 7,200 RPM 4 platter 3.5in SATA3 drive), cuts
> > the time by 45 seconds or 42% of that 2.0 time. Going to my SATA3 480GB (550MB/s read / 450MB/s write
> > access below 0.1ms) SSD would make for 6 seconds xfer and less than 0.26 seconds seek. That 6.26 seconds
> > makes for a 17 time improvement or about 100 seconds. The Op600 NVME drive would cut that to 1.83 seconds
> > xfer and 0.1 second seek totaling under 2 seconds about a 55 times speed up. CPU time dominates though
> > as the average "old" game takes 30-60 seconds to load even
> > on that SSD which is mostly covered by the splash
> > screens on fire up to the main menu. And it takes even more time to start a game from the menu. And lets
> > face it, on PCs like my two, the whole game is in the DRAM
> > cache so firing it up a second time is practically
> > immediate as DRAM in the old PC runs at 25GB/s with single digit ns latencies (0.13 seconds for both xfer
> > and seek). No way would a console be as fast as a decent PC.
>
> You presume too much.
>
> You can't just take some random games and presume they represent every other game. 3.3 GBs is getting
> small even for indie games of today, and is clearly in different league compared to 100 GB AAA monster
> sold today, for PS4 and Xbox One, so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here.
>
> I fully agree that on average, current games don't optimize loading times particularly well,
> especially on PC. For an example of AAA game that has horrible loading times (with todays NVME
> SSDs and CPUs) try Mass Effect 2. Then compare it to Mass Effect 3, which is much better. There's
> no clear reason why loading times for those very similar games differ at all.
>
> I also fully expect loading times of average games to remaing less than stellarly
> optimized. Even more so if MS decides to stay on HDD with their next console (are
> they even in any hurry after Xbox One X?). Is that a reason why Sony shouldn't offer
> an SSD at all? Not offer NVME SSD? How much would going with SATA SDD save them?
>
> In Trine 4 (not yet published), game install size is currently about 13 GBs and we load somewhere around
> 3-4 GBs of textures on level change (for full resolution textures). The full loaded-once-done amount
> is around 4-5 GBs. They are streamed in (actual, CPU limited level loading is typically few tenths of
> a second), and we don't yet have the special code to do initial loading fast. We also don't have any
> intelligence in checking which textures could remain in memory between levels (there would need to be
> a defragmentation step), but some (about one GB as seen in above numbers) are always resident.
>
> Just going with the 4 GB figure and SATA3 speed means eight seconds loading.
> And this is Trine 4. Most people categorize it as "indie game".
>
> Of course, on PS4 and every other current generation console (including Xbox One
> X) the texture size will be reduced. On PS5? Well, quite a bit of specs are still
> missing, so we'll wait and see (or don't see, if the game is never ported).
>

I was using the average somewhat older game. But which loading do you refer to? The initial load of the game to the main menu, or the one from the main menu to the actual game to playable start? In the first case, it is dominated by the splash screens and fast loading is covered by that. Very little textures and such are even loaded at that point so even the 100GB monsters don't use much of that during this initial load and it shows. The second load is not complete either as the whole playing environment is just a fraction of that size and loads as the game is played. Thus the examples are worst case for the admittedly older games, but are likely close for the newer AAA titles on initial playing game initialization.

> > So a SATA3 SSD of 500GB in size will be good enough even with huge 4K texture games. And since
> > I do game at 4K, I know that AA is totally unnecessary as even my large 42" monitor would require one
> > with 20/20 vision to be 25" from the screen to see individual 3 color pixels in the center and just
> > 13" to see those pixels at the corners. I game at about 4' from that screen which is good enough to
> > see individual pixels in the center at 1920x1080 on said 42" monitor. Thus the FHD texture pack is
> > good enough and 4K is vast overkill. But marketing (and bragging rights) trump common sense.
>
> Hmm? 4k texture pack just means textures that are better than what is enough for some lesser resolution.
> There's no absolute value for goodness. If resolution X is just right for HD, then 4k will need
> something more than X. It isn't necessarily 4X, but it's clearly something more.
>
> Unless your point is that 4k is idiotic in general and every sane person should
> just play in HD. I don't own any 4k screen myself, and only spent significant
> time with one in my previous job, so I'd rather not argue about that.

That is not my point. I do game at 4K on real monitors on real CPUs and real GPUs. Optically speaking, 4K is above what a normal gamer sees on a big monitor (not many have even 32" as their 4K gaming monitor). Optically they see about 1440P or a bit better on a 42" monitor like mine. So 4K gaming s justified, but with no AA needed as it is optically taken care of. Any AA will not be seen and is thus wasted effort (definition of overkill). Ditto for 4K textures as opposed to FHD ones or 1440P ones. And as you and others have said, most of that 100GB is those 4K texture packs. without them we are talking about 30-40GB per super AAA titles and a 500GB drive can easily handle 10 or so of those which few play with any regularity in a few weeks time frame. Thus off and on loading from a external USB3 HD as the mix changes over time will take care of those few who favorites change frequently. I change slowly and have 2-3 games I play frequently over a month or two and I am like 90+% of gamers in that regard.

Thus a console covering that typical gamer needs 80-120GB of online storage, 250GB is enough for today, but isn't future proof, and 500GB is the next step (480-512GB going by typical retail SATA3 and NVMe sizes) for the typical 5-7 year life of a console. A midlife kicker to 1TB would take care of even the worst game size creep over that span. PC gamers don't need much now as we can and do upgrade storage as needed. Look at me where 7TB of storage is devoted to video, 250GB to games, 32GB to music, 30GB to photos, and 45GB to everything else. I keep at least 2 times that for online backup and more like 4-5 times for the critical stuff. I figure that in a year, I will go over 8TB for all of it and start buying 10 or 12TB externals next year.
>
> > BTW try to find any AAA title that does not splash going to main menu.
>
> There are rarely splash screens during level changes and never while streaming during play.
>
> Also, many games today show splash screens, intro video etc. while doing initial loading.
> If you skip them, you just wait in loading screen (or main menu) a bit longer.
>
> -JLarja

1TB SATA3 SSD is more than fast enough for FHD textures on GTA-V on my new box which will soon be 2 generations back. It does have 48GB of memory (main and VRAM). A non 4K texture AAA game fits in the DRAM cache. More memory helps cover size creep.

Pete

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Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationsleep2019/04/16 11:04 PM
  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDoug S2019/04/17 12:20 AM
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    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAndrew Clough2019/04/17 05:33 AM
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        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAndrew Clough2019/04/17 10:21 AM
          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/20 07:29 PM
            Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationblue2019/04/20 08:29 PM
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                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationBlue2019/04/21 03:25 AM
                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/21 07:45 AM
                    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationpgerassi2019/04/21 06:56 PM
                      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/21 09:18 PM
                        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationpgerassi2019/04/22 08:33 AM
                          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/22 09:54 AM
                            Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationpgerassi2019/04/22 11:45 PM
                              Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/23 07:36 AM
                                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationwumpus2019/04/23 08:06 AM
                                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/23 11:32 AM
                                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/28 05:46 PM
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                          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/19 01:53 AM
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                        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/28 05:52 PM
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                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/19 02:03 AM
                    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationwumpus2019/04/19 06:50 AM
                    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationaaron spink2019/04/19 07:25 AM
                      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/19 08:40 AM
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              Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 11:39 AM
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        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAaron Spink2019/04/17 11:48 AM
          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 07:46 AM
            Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAaron Spink2019/04/18 09:05 AM
              Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 11:51 AM
                Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationAaron Spink2019/04/18 02:50 PM
                  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationanon2019/04/18 03:16 PM
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          Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/19 08:29 AM
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          Why are you assuming it will even have an optical drive?Jukka Larja2019/04/19 12:19 PM
            Why are you assuming it will even have an optical drive?David Hess2019/04/20 08:45 PM
          the source article...blue2019/04/20 05:50 AM
            the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/20 07:29 AM
              the source article...wumpus2019/04/20 08:48 AM
                the source article...aaron spink2019/04/20 08:51 AM
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                the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/20 12:08 PM
                  the source article...Groo2019/04/20 12:37 PM
                    the source article...Doug S2019/04/21 12:11 AM
                      the source article...Doug S2019/04/21 12:33 AM
                      the source article...Blue2019/04/21 03:30 AM
                        the source article...Doug S2019/04/21 10:08 AM
                          the source article...blue2019/04/23 12:36 AM
                            the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/23 08:27 AM
                              the source article...Brett2019/04/23 11:22 AM
                                the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/23 11:43 AM
                              the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/23 11:55 AM
                                the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/24 01:15 PM
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                                    the source article...none2019/04/25 06:14 AM
                                      the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/25 11:32 AM
                                    the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/25 07:06 AM
                                      the source article...anon2019/04/25 09:00 AM
                                        the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/25 12:12 PM
                                          the source article...anon2019/04/26 11:27 AM
                                      the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/25 11:40 AM
                                        the source article...Aaron Spink2019/04/25 12:08 PM
                            the source article...Doug S2019/04/23 10:33 AM
                  the source article...David Hess2019/04/20 08:51 PM
                    the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/20 10:00 PM
                  the source article...gallier22019/04/24 12:01 AM
                    the source article...Jukka Larja2019/04/24 05:25 AM
                the source article...David Hess2019/04/20 08:49 PM
                  the source article...Groo2019/04/21 07:41 AM
      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/20 08:19 PM
        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJukka Larja2019/04/20 10:15 PM
  Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJose2019/04/17 10:00 PM
    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJose2019/04/18 03:33 AM
      Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationdmcq2019/04/18 05:30 AM
        Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationJose2019/04/18 10:41 PM
    Wired Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStationDavid Hess2019/04/20 09:06 PM
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