Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chips

By: Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org), April 26, 2019 10:05 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
dmcq (dmcq.delete@this.fano.co.uk) on April 26, 2019 2:22 am wrote:
> Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on April 25, 2019 12:43 pm wrote:
> > Dummond D. Slow (mental.delete@this.protozoa.us) on April 25, 2019 11:37 am wrote:
> > > https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-plotted-to-hurt-qualcomm-years-before-it-sued-the-company/
> > > "Qualcomm presented internal Apple documents during its opening arguments
> > > in court that it said showed Apple's efforts to pressure it."
> >
> > Oh boo-fscking-hoo.
> > Have you actually read QC's "evidence"?
> > What EXACTLY is Apple's crime here? That Apple "conspired" to reduce the amount of money it paid QC?
> > Listen to the arrogance and the insanity in that claim. QC feels so entitled
> > that, apparently, it counts as a conspiracy (and one worthy of court action)
> > if any customer attempts to do ANYTHING to reduce the money flowing to QC.
> >
> > Think I am exaggerating? Look at one of their "damning" slides:
> > eg slide 15. Apple Switched to Intel to Exert "Commercial Pressure"
> > OMG!!! Call the FBI!!! A company has changed suppliers to exert commercial pressure!!!
> > Has anything so evil ever occurred before in the history of capitalism?
> >
> > And the whole thing is like that. Bullshit exaggerations and claims that absolutely normal commercial
> > behavior are beyond the pale when directed at QC. Throw in scare words like "plotting" and "planning
> > for two years" but that doesn't change the bullshitness of the accusation.
> >
> > If this was the best QC could do on opening day, I'm not surprised they folded.
> >
> > If you want to know the TRUE content of this case, here's the money paragraph:
> >
> >
Apple in its opening arguments said that Qualcomm's licensing practices have hurt competitors like Intel.
> > ...
> > Apple "said that as a result of our policies, other chip
> > companies can't compete with us," Chesler said during
> > his opening arguments. "Where did Intel get the chips from? From god? They made them using our technology."
> > ...
> > "What makes your smartphone smart is what the people up the road in La Jolla invented," Chesler
> > said in court, referring to the San Diego-area town where Qualcomm's offices are based.
> >

> >
> > OK, and where are Intel now? Apparently unable to make those chips.
> > So perhaps there just might have been some truth to Apple's claims?
> >
> > QC continues to believe, many many years after the irrelevance of CDMA, that they're God's
> > gift to telco, the only people on the planet who understand RF. IF they provided some sort
> > of tech white paper justifying this claim --- maybe a PR paper alongside the lawsuit talking
> > about the wonderful contributions QC made to LTE and 5G --- I'd be more impressed.
> > But what I see from the legal/PR behavior is what I've said before. Great work on CDMA
> > back in the day, then a constant pattern of being first to get their ideas before 3GPP,
> > followed by an insistence that because their ideas are in 3GPP they must be the best
> > ideas, than what was proposed by any alternative company must have been crap.
> >
> > I saw so much of this sort of behavior with respect to the MPEG-4 standardization process, and it is
> > such bullshit. There are so many good ideas, and the fact that your idea got in not someone else's
> > reflects 95% political pressure. Very few ideas are so clearly superior to any alternative that they're
> > truly make or break for the performance expectations of a particular generation of standard.
> >
> > I know an awful lot of people think I'm on about this because I'm supposedly pro-Apple. But you might
> > want to ask yourselves how come you're constantly whining about the hurtful effects of patents and
> > how they're slowing progress, but you leap to the defense of a company like QC whose entire argument
> > is "we're entitled to use our patents however we like, including to slow down progress to our convenience"?
> > And which spends a fair bit of money in academia and lobbying pushing that exact line?
> > Are those your real priorities? That you care more about signaling that you hate
> > Apple, than about the long term consequences of the behavior you're supporting?
>
> I am not quite following you. Are you arguing that patents are okay but only if controlled by FRAND? Personally
> I think FRAND is okay in theory but is too biased in favor of large companies like Apple and should be changed.
> As far as I can see Qualcomm's use of its patents has not hindered development of smartphones and has enabled
> many smaller manufacturers to enter the market. IIf FRAND was applied the way Apple interpret it then the minimum
> price of smartphones would have to be higher to pay for research and development. That may be more to the letter
> of FRAND but the purpose of the state is to uphold development and competition not just big companies. If for
> instance ARM had used a licencing model like FRAND it would never have taken off and the same for anything else
> that might have substituted for it. Would that really be better for development and competition??

QC is making a *MORAL* argument, that "the modern cellular industry would not exist without us, we have done most of the work to advance it", and their supposed proof for this claim is that they have patents covering large parts of LTE and 5G.
My point is that the moral claim does not follow from the number of patents, because the patents don't reflect essentially technology that had to be done the way QC did them, what they reflect is QC's political skill in getting its way of doing things into the specs.

For non-spec environments this wouldn't matter: QC can have a patent pool as large as it likes for it's particular way of doing things on Adreno, and no-one else cares much because more or less equivalent alternatives exist that other GPUs can use. But for spec-essential patents, people have to use the QC way of doing things, and so it is political control over the spec, not absolute technical excellence, that translates into a large pool of apparently great patents.

No-one is claiming that QC's patents have hindered the growth of the SMARTPHONE market --- because QC sells SoCs with their modems on them!
What it has probably hindered is the growth of the MODEM market, and beyond that the growth of the non-QC SoC market.

But I'm not interested in the money aspects of this --- I don't especially care how Apple and QC and everyone else split the pie, who gets $7 here and $9 there.
I'm interested in the bullshit logic/emotional claims aspect of it. We're all diminished when illogical and frankly idiotic claims are allowed to dominate the public space, and that's what we have in QC's argument.
I would have had no complaints with an argument that didn't use the scare words, that didn't insist that Apple's attempt to negotiate lower prices was a crime against humanity, and that provided actual numbers or evidence for the supposed TECHNICAL superiority of QC.
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TopicPosted ByDate
Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDummond D. Slow2019/04/18 04:47 PM
  antitrust implications? (NT)anonymous22019/04/18 08:53 PM
    antitrust implications?Doug S2019/04/18 09:50 PM
      antitrust implications?Beastian2019/04/18 11:02 PM
  Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDoug S2019/04/18 09:45 PM
    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsdmcq2019/04/18 11:05 PM
      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/18 11:28 PM
        Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsAdrian2019/04/19 12:48 AM
          Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsdmcq2019/04/19 06:54 AM
            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsAdrian2019/04/19 10:33 AM
              Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsdmcq2019/04/19 11:54 AM
            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/19 12:03 PM
          Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/19 08:38 AM
            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipssylt2019/04/19 10:28 AM
              Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/19 11:03 AM
                Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipssylt2019/04/20 12:08 AM
                  Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/20 10:15 AM
                    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/20 10:41 AM
                    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipssylt2019/04/20 02:22 PM
                      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/20 08:31 PM
                        Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/20 10:41 PM
                      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsGroo2019/04/21 07:50 AM
            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsAdrian2019/04/19 10:45 AM
              Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/19 11:27 AM
                Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/19 12:09 PM
                  Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/19 12:17 PM
                    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/19 01:19 PM
                      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsGroo2019/04/20 06:50 AM
                        Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/20 10:49 AM
                          Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/20 11:08 AM
                            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/21 12:18 AM
                              Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/21 12:19 AM
        Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDoug S2019/04/19 10:46 AM
          Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/19 11:50 AM
          Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/19 04:17 PM
            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDoug S2019/04/19 10:59 PM
              Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsGroo2019/04/20 09:28 AM
              Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/20 10:33 AM
                Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/21 12:26 AM
            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/20 10:55 AM
      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsAndreas2019/04/19 04:55 AM
    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsAndrew Clough2019/04/19 06:19 AM
    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsGroo2019/04/19 07:44 AM
    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/19 11:49 AM
    Read this and realize what Apple doesGroo2019/04/19 04:27 PM
  Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/19 11:32 AM
    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDummond D. Slow2019/04/19 12:15 PM
    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDoug S2019/04/19 02:48 PM
      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/19 03:53 PM
        Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDoug S2019/04/19 11:05 PM
          Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/20 10:49 AM
            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDoug S2019/04/21 12:07 AM
              Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/05/15 07:51 AM
                Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDoug S2019/05/15 11:16 AM
                Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/05/15 12:21 PM
  Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDummond D. Slow2019/04/25 11:37 AM
    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/25 12:43 PM
      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsdmcq2019/04/26 02:22 AM
        Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/04/26 10:05 AM
          Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/26 11:57 AM
            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsAnon2019/04/27 04:11 PM
              Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/04/27 08:15 PM
                Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDoug S2019/04/28 06:59 AM
                  Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/05/02 12:01 PM
                    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/05/02 03:58 PM
                      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/05/02 04:27 PM
                      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsanonymou52019/05/02 05:37 PM
                        Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDummond D. Slow2019/05/03 01:35 AM
                          Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/05/03 09:32 AM
                            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDummond D. Slow2019/05/03 01:32 PM
                              Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/05/03 03:45 PM
                                Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsUmmmm...2019/05/03 04:35 PM
                                  Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/05/03 04:56 PM
                                  Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDummond D. Slow2019/05/03 09:10 PM
                                    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDummond D. Slow2019/05/03 09:11 PM
                                    Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/05/03 10:12 PM
                                      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDummond D. Slow2019/05/04 08:33 AM
                      Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDoug S2019/05/03 01:11 AM
                        Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/05/06 09:09 AM
                          Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/05/06 11:40 AM
                            Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsBeastian2019/05/06 01:16 PM
                              Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsMaynard Handley2019/05/06 04:15 PM
                        Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsSimon Farnsworth2019/05/07 05:23 AM
          Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsdmcq2019/04/26 12:52 PM
  Apple agrees to become Qualcomm's licensee and returns to their baseband chipsDummond D. Slow2019/05/02 09:25 AM
    So Qualcomm got less than 2/3 of what they wantedDoug S2019/05/02 10:35 AM
      So Qualcomm got less than 2/3 of what they wantedBeastian2019/05/02 11:43 AM
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