Are segments so bad?

By: Adrian (a.delete@this.acm.org), January 9, 2020 11:49 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Paul A. Clayton (paaronclayton.delete@this.gmail.com) on January 9, 2020 2:15 pm wrote:
> Anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com) on January 8, 2020 8:37 pm wrote:
> [snip]
> > To name one bad feature I will say segments, of all methods of addressing
> > data beyond the native int size Intel probably choose the worst of them.
>
> HP PA-RISC segments seemed okay (though I think using the least significant bits rather
> than the most significant bits to provide an "implicit" segment number might have been
> better). However, this is a theoretical perspective not from experience.
>
> x86 segments mixed address extension and protection and were relatively complex. Having a code




Exactly like you said, x85 segments were used for two different purposes, address extension and memory protection.

Segments used for address extension are definitely very bad, there is no doubt about that. I remember with horror the ancient times when I had to juggle with the large, medium, compact and small memory models.


Segments used only for memory protection should be OK, because they are transparent for software, the same like paging.


In fact I believe that most extra features provided by paging besides memory protection (i.e. dynamic relocation of fragmented memory and virtual memory) are not really needed. If one would not use those features, then segments would be a more efficient way to implement memory protection.


For virtual memory, I am quite sure that it is useless, because during the last 20 years I have always disabled the use of swap on all Linux and FreeBSD servers and workstations, both at home and at work, and this was always an improvement. (But I have always provided enough real memory.)


For the dynamic relocation of fragmented memory, I cannot prove my belief yet, i.e. that alternative approaches are not worse than using paging for relocation, so that the virtual to real address translation could be omitted or simplified, because for that I would have for example to complete an OS kernel able to run any Linux applications while using only identity mappings in the page tables and then show that there are no disadvantages compared to a traditional kernel.


Nevertheless, I am actually working at that.
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Nuances related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux SchedulerBeastian2020/01/03 11:46 AM
  Nuances related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux SchedulerMontaray Jack2020/01/03 12:14 PM
    Nuances related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux SchedulerMontaray Jack2020/01/03 12:49 PM
  No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Linus Torvalds2020/01/03 06:05 PM
    No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Beastian2020/01/04 11:03 AM
    No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Malte Skarupke2020/01/04 11:22 AM
      No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Linus Torvalds2020/01/04 12:31 PM
        No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)dmcq2020/01/05 06:33 AM
        No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)smeuletz2020/01/06 01:05 AM
          Do not blame others for your unfinished jobsmeuletz2020/01/06 01:08 AM
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              PhoronixGabriele Svelto2020/01/06 04:04 AM
                PhoronixSalvatore De Dominicis2020/01/06 06:59 AM
            Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismChester2020/01/06 08:17 AM
              Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismsmeuletz2020/01/06 09:11 AM
                Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismChester2020/01/06 09:54 AM
                  Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismsmeuletz2020/01/06 10:33 AM
                    Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismLinus Torvalds2020/01/06 11:58 AM
                      Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismGionatan Danti2020/01/06 12:13 PM
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                            Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismLinus Torvalds2020/01/10 11:45 AM
                      Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismsmeuletz2020/01/07 03:07 AM
                        Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismSimon Farnsworth2020/01/07 12:40 PM
                        Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismEtienne2020/01/08 01:08 AM
                          Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismsmeuletz2020/01/08 01:18 AM
                            Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismMichael S2020/01/08 01:56 AM
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                      Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismmagicalgoat2020/01/09 04:58 PM
                        Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismLinus Torvalds2020/01/09 09:37 PM
                          Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismAnon32020/01/10 03:40 PM
                  Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismrwessel2020/01/06 09:04 PM
                Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismLinus Torvalds2020/01/06 11:11 AM
                  Do not blame anyone. Please give polite, constructive criticismGabriele Svelto2020/01/06 01:36 PM
        No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Howard Chu2020/01/09 10:39 PM
          No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Linus Torvalds2020/01/10 11:30 AM
      No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)president ltd2020/01/04 01:44 PM
    No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Jörn Engel2020/01/04 11:34 AM
      No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Emil Briggs2020/01/04 12:13 PM
        No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Jörn Engel2020/01/04 12:46 PM
      No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Linus Torvalds2020/01/04 01:24 PM
        No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Linus Torvalds2020/01/04 02:54 PM
          No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Jörn Engel2020/01/05 09:21 AM
            No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Linus Torvalds2020/01/05 11:42 AM
              FUTEX_LOCK_PI performanceJörn Engel2020/01/05 01:45 PM
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                      FUTEX_LOCK_PI performanceLinus Torvalds2020/01/06 12:11 PM
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                      FUTEX_LOCK_PI performanceGabriele Svelto2020/01/13 03:53 AM
                      FUTEX_LOCK_PI performanceSimon Farnsworth2020/01/13 04:36 AM
                      FUTEX_LOCK_PI performancerwessel2020/01/13 05:22 AM
    No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)rainstar2020/01/04 09:58 PM
      No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Charles Ellis2020/01/05 03:00 AM
        No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Richard2020/01/05 08:58 AM
          It's hard to separateMichael S2020/01/05 10:17 AM
            It's hard to separaterainstared2020/01/06 12:52 AM
              It's hard to separateDavid Kanter2020/01/08 08:27 AM
                It's hard to separateAnon2020/01/08 08:37 PM
                  It's hard to separatenone2020/01/08 10:50 PM
                    It's hard to separateAnon2020/01/09 12:41 AM
                      It's hard to separatenone2020/01/09 02:54 AM
                        It's hard to separategallier22020/01/09 03:19 AM
                          It's hard to separateAnon2020/01/09 04:12 AM
                            It's hard to separateAdrian2020/01/09 04:24 AM
                              It's hard to separategallier22020/01/09 04:58 AM
                                It's hard to separateAdrian2020/01/09 06:09 AM
                            It's hard to separategallier22020/01/09 04:42 AM
                        It's hard to separateAdrian2020/01/09 03:41 AM
                        It's hard to separateAnon2020/01/09 04:24 AM
                          It's hard to separategallier22020/01/09 05:07 AM
                          It's hard to separateDavid Hess2020/01/09 08:27 AM
                            It's hard to separateAdrian2020/01/09 09:15 AM
                              It's hard to separateDavid Hess2020/01/09 09:45 AM
                                It's hard to separateAnon2020/01/09 10:15 AM
                                  It's hard to separateAdrian2020/01/09 10:51 AM
                                    It's hard to separateBrett2020/01/09 12:49 PM
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                                                        IBM PC successEtienne2020/01/16 05:42 AM
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                                                    8086 does NOT have those addressing modesDevin2020/01/12 01:13 PM
                                                      8086 does NOT have those addressing modesRicardo B2020/01/12 05:46 PM
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                                    It's hard to separateDavid Hess2020/01/11 06:08 AM
                                  It's hard to separateDavid Hess2020/01/11 06:11 AM
                                It's hard to separateAdrian2020/01/09 11:16 AM
                                  It's hard to separateDavid Hess2020/01/11 06:17 AM
                                It's hard to separategallier22020/01/10 12:11 AM
                                  It's hard to separatenone2020/01/10 01:58 AM
                        It's hard to separaterwessel2020/01/09 07:00 AM
                        It's hard to separateDavid Hess2020/01/09 08:10 AM
                          It's hard to separaterwessel2020/01/09 08:51 AM
                  It's hard to separateAdrian2020/01/08 10:58 PM
                    It's hard to separaterwessel2020/01/09 06:31 AM
                      It's hard to separateAdrian2020/01/09 06:44 AM
                    It's hard to separateDavid Hess2020/01/09 08:37 AM
                      It's hard to separatenone2020/01/09 09:34 AM
                  Are segments so bad?Paul A. Clayton2020/01/09 02:15 PM
                    Yes, they are terrible (NT)Anon2020/01/09 02:20 PM
                    Are segments so bad?Adrian2020/01/09 11:49 PM
                      Are segments so bad?Etienne2020/01/10 01:28 AM
                        Are segments so bad?gallier22020/01/10 01:37 AM
                          Are segments so bad?Adrian2020/01/10 02:19 AM
                            Are segments so bad?Adrian2020/01/10 03:27 AM
                              Are segments so bad?Etienne2020/01/10 03:41 AM
                        Are segments so bad?Adrian2020/01/10 02:05 AM
                          Are segments so bad?gallier22020/01/10 02:13 AM
                      Are segments so bad?Anon32020/01/10 10:37 AM
                        Are segments so bad?Adrian2020/01/10 10:47 AM
                          Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/11 12:43 AM
                      Are segments so bad?Anon2020/01/10 05:51 PM
                        Are segments so bad?Adrian2020/01/11 12:05 AM
                          Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/11 07:20 AM
                            Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/11 09:14 AM
                              Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/11 08:15 PM
                                Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/11 10:15 PM
                                  Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/12 03:18 AM
                                  Are segments so bad?anon2020/01/12 11:30 AM
                                    Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/12 09:19 PM
                                      the world sucks worse than you're aware ofMichael S2020/01/13 12:50 AM
                                        the world sucks worse than you're aware ofBrendan2020/01/13 02:56 AM
                                        the world sucks worse than you're aware ofGabriele Svelto2020/01/13 03:46 AM
                                      Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/13 06:41 AM
                                        Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/13 07:21 AM
                                          Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/13 08:43 AM
                                            Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/13 12:02 PM
                                              Are segments so bad?Anne O. Nymous2020/01/13 12:22 PM
                                                Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/13 01:50 PM
                                                  actor of around 200?Michael S2020/01/14 02:58 AM
                                                  Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessGabriele Svelto2020/01/14 11:50 AM
                                                    Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessBrendan2020/01/14 12:40 PM
                                                      Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessGabriele Svelto2020/01/15 02:17 AM
                                                        Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessAnon2020/01/15 03:43 AM
                                                          Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessGabriele Svelto2020/01/15 04:09 AM
                                                            Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessAnon2020/01/15 04:16 AM
                                                              Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessGabriele Svelto2020/01/15 05:58 AM
                                                                Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessAnon2020/01/15 08:08 AM
                                                                  Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessGabriele Svelto2020/01/16 03:05 AM
                                                        Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessMichael S2020/01/15 03:48 AM
                                                          Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessGabriele Svelto2020/01/15 04:10 AM
                                                            Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessMichael S2020/01/15 07:13 AM
                                                              Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessJukka Larja2020/01/15 07:46 AM
                                                        Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessJukka Larja2020/01/15 05:08 AM
                                                          Thanks for the info (NT)Gabriele Svelto2020/01/15 06:00 AM
                                                      Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessLinus Torvalds2020/01/15 11:30 AM
                                                        OOM killer complainsAnon2020/01/15 11:44 AM
                                                          OOM killer complainsanon2020/01/15 03:26 PM
                                                        Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessBrendan2020/01/16 06:26 AM
                                                          Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessLinus Torvalds2020/01/16 09:17 AM
                                                            Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessLinus Torvalds2020/01/16 09:48 AM
                                                              Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessDoug S2020/01/16 02:41 PM
                                                                Not overcomitting leads to more OOMs, not lessDoug S2020/01/16 02:44 PM
                                                Are segments so bad?rwessel2020/01/13 03:11 PM
                                              Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/14 06:37 AM
                                                Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/14 07:48 AM
                                                  Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/14 10:13 AM
                                                    Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/14 01:30 PM
                                                      Are segments so bad?Brett2020/01/14 09:13 PM
                                                      Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/15 06:04 AM
                                                  Are segments so bad?Gabriele Svelto2020/01/15 02:35 AM
                                            Specifying cost of dropping pagesPaul A. Clayton2020/01/13 02:00 PM
                                              Specifying cost of dropping pagesrwessel2020/01/13 03:19 PM
                                                Specifying cost of dropping pagesGabriele Svelto2020/01/15 02:23 AM
                                          Are segments so bad?anon2020/01/14 01:15 AM
                                            Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/14 05:13 AM
                                          Are segments so bad?Gabriele Svelto2020/01/14 11:57 AM
                                            Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/14 01:58 PM
                                              Are segments so bad?Gabriele Svelto2020/01/15 02:33 AM
                                                Are segments so bad?Anon2020/01/15 04:24 AM
                                                  Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/15 05:20 AM
                                                Are segments so bad?Etienne2020/01/15 04:56 AM
                                                  Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/15 07:53 AM
                                                    Are segments so bad?Gabriele Svelto2020/01/16 05:12 AM
                                                      Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/16 09:56 AM
                                                Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/15 05:20 AM
                                                  Are segments so bad?Gabriele Svelto2020/01/15 05:56 AM
                                                    Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/16 06:16 AM
                                                      Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/16 10:08 AM
                                                        Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/17 12:52 PM
                                                          Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/17 09:08 PM
                                                            Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/18 11:40 AM
                                                      Are segments so bad?rwessel2020/01/16 02:06 PM
                                                      Are segments so bad?Gabriele Svelto2020/01/16 02:13 PM
                                                        Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/17 12:51 PM
                                                          Are segments so bad?Gabriele Svelto2020/01/17 02:18 PM
                                                            Are segments so bad?Anon2020/01/17 07:01 PM
                                                            Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/18 02:15 PM
                                                          Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/17 09:26 PM
                                Are segments so bad?Anne O. Nymous2020/01/12 03:18 AM
                                  Are segments so bad?Jukka Larja2020/01/12 07:41 AM
                            Are segments so bad?rwessel2020/01/11 12:31 PM
                          Are segments so bad?Anne O. Nymous2020/01/11 07:22 AM
                      Are segments so bad?Ricardo B2020/01/11 07:01 PM
                        Are segments so bad?Adrian2020/01/11 11:18 PM
                          Are segments so bad?Michael S2020/01/12 01:43 AM
                            Are segments so bad?Adrian2020/01/12 03:35 AM
                          Are segments so bad?Ricardo B2020/01/12 11:04 AM
                            Are segments so bad?Anon32020/01/12 04:52 PM
                            Are segments so bad?Brendan2020/01/12 08:58 PM
                      Are segments so bad?Paul A. Clayton2020/01/13 08:11 AM
        No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)rainstared2020/01/06 12:43 AM
          No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Foo_2020/01/06 04:33 AM
            No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)dmcq2020/01/06 05:03 AM
            changes in contextCarlie Coats2020/01/09 08:06 AM
      No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)rainstar2020/01/09 09:16 PM
        No nuances, just buggy code (was: related to Spinlock implementation and the Linux Scheduler)Montaray Jack2020/01/09 10:11 PM
    Suggested reading for the authoranon2020/01/04 10:16 PM
      Suggested reading for the authorab2020/01/05 04:15 AM
        Looking at the other side (frequency scaling)Chester2020/01/06 09:19 AM
          Looking at the other side (frequency scaling)Foo_2020/01/06 10:00 AM
          Why spinlocks were usedFoo_2020/01/06 10:06 AM
            Why spinlocks were usedJukka Larja2020/01/06 11:59 AM
            Why spinlocks were usedSimon Cooke2020/01/06 02:16 PM
            Why spinlocks were usedRizzo2020/01/07 12:18 AM
          Looking at the other side (frequency scaling)ab2020/01/07 12:14 AM
    Cross-platform codeGian-Carlo Pascutto2020/01/06 07:00 AM
      Cross-platform codeMichael S2020/01/06 08:11 AM
        Cross-platform codeGian-Carlo Pascutto2020/01/06 11:33 AM
          Cross-platform codeMichael S2020/01/06 12:59 PM
            Cross-platform codeNksingh2020/01/06 11:09 PM
              Cross-platform codeMichael S2020/01/07 01:00 AM
              SRW lock implementationMichael S2020/01/07 01:35 AM
                SRW lock implementationNksingh2020/01/09 01:17 PM
                  broken URL in Linux source codeMichael S2020/01/14 12:56 AM
                    broken URL in Linux source codeTravis Downs2020/01/14 09:14 AM
                      broken URL in Linux source codeMichael S2020/01/14 09:48 AM
                        broken URL in Linux source codeTravis Downs2020/01/14 03:43 PM
                  SRW lock implementation - url brokenMichael S2020/01/14 02:07 AM
                    SRW lock implementation - url brokenTravis Downs2020/01/14 10:06 AM
                      SRW lock implementation - url brokengpderetta2020/01/15 03:28 AM
                        SRW lock implementation - url brokenTravis Downs2020/01/15 10:16 AM
                      SRW lock implementation - url brokenLinus Torvalds2020/01/15 10:20 AM
                        SRW lock implementation - url brokenTravis Downs2020/01/15 10:35 AM
                          SRW lock implementation - url brokenLinus Torvalds2020/01/16 10:24 AM
      Cross-platform codeLinus Torvalds2020/01/06 12:57 PM
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