they are not actually transitioning

By: Anne O. Nymous (not.delete@this.real.address), June 24, 2020 4:41 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
hobold (hobold.delete@this.vectorizer.org) on June 24, 2020 3:33 am wrote:
> Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on June 23, 2020 9:14 am wrote:
> > hobold (hobold.delete@this.vectorizer.org) on June 23, 2020 1:07 am wrote:
> > > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on June 22, 2020 11:57 pm wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've posted the wikipedia PPC->Intel transition page here like 10 times. I've explained
> > > > many more times than that how this transition will follow that exact same script. And
> > > > yet people refuse to listen up till the minute that the announcements occur.
> > > >
> > > Apple's history of transitions, both m68k -> PowerPC, and PowerPC -> x86, did follow the script
> > >
> > > 1. have a complicated and unreliable translator that works good
> > > enough for stage presentations and very simple programs
> > >
> > > 2. quickly abandon the translation layer before it ever learns to deal with the hard cases
> > >
> > > Been there, observed that. Twice.
> > >
> > > You know how the saying goes: "Any sufficiently advanced
> > > technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo."
> >
> > So what is your complaint?
>
> My complaint is that Apple is a marketing driven company, not a technology driven company.
> Apple is promoting the image of being a technology leader. But that is merely propaganda
> (or call it advertizing if the former term is too laden with war connotations).
>
> When Apple transitions ISAs, they punish those developers who had put extra effort into
> tuning their software. Rosetta 1 didn't support AltiVec, Rosetta 2 doesn't support AVX.
> Customers who invested in such software are getting punished as collateral damage.
>
> When Apple transitions ISAs, that happens because they had bet on the wrong technology, or because they were
> unable to make it succeed, despite all the marketing. When Apple transitions ISAs, that is the correction
> of an earlier mistake. In the "best" case, an Apple ISA transition is an act of planned obsolescence.
>
> Rosetta 2 is stage magic. My complaint is that we, knowledgeable computer
> experts, are falling for the same trick again. And again. And again.
>
>
> The worst part is that Apple is not even transitioning. In the video keynote
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEZhD3J89ZE
> at 1h46m00s, Tim Cook first says the transition will take two years. Immediately afterwards he
> says new Intel based hardware is in the pipeline and will be supported for years to come.
>
> If a transition doesn't end, is it really a transition? It is all marketing. ARM Macs get the promise of a
> bright future, so that enough customers actually buy them. Intel Macs get the promise of comfortable retirement,
> so that enough customers actually continue buying them. It is all marketing. We all fall for it.
>
> Third party software vendors having to do double the testing? Apple doesn't care. Third party Mac software
> vendors effectively getting turned into unpaid Apple employees, just like with the iOS tightly controlled
> app store? Oh, Apple very much does care, yes! And we will all cheer, because it's Apple.
>
> On the OS side, Apple is repeating Microsoft's mistake of forcing phone GUI metaphors
> onto the desktop. Only this time, we will all cheer, because it's Apple.
>
>
> Way back when Apple transitioned from PowerPC to Intel, I jokingly told some friends that
> Intel's days are numbered, because Apple's processor makers all die sooner rather than
> later. Turns out Apple was indeed prepared for that particular contingency. :-)
>
> But I am not a Wizard of the Dark Arts, so that curse is a mere joke. And Apple will live, despite being their
> own processor maker now. And we will all cheer Apple on. Even though we all should know better by now.

I mostly agree with the core of your argument, but I evaluate things a bit differently.

I for one consider being willing to change ISA/platform not a sign of weakness or a correction of an earlier error, but simply as good management, nobodies crystal ball actually works that well, and what might have been even an absolute optimal strategy/decision in the past might turn out to be a dead end in the near future. So flexibility and change per se are not bad things.

But in this list even Maynard, who I classify as emotionally biased for Apple deference, argued that rosetta 2 is not intended to solve the hard ISA-emulation problem for good, but really just a helpful tool to allow to aintain the existing user base and give them peace of mind that they will not be forced to jettison all old code real soon now. (It being Apple, we all can assume that "not real soon now" does not equate "next to never", but that is the art of marketing).
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TopicPosted ByDate
Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Maynard Handley2020/06/22 11:26 AM
  Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Maynard Handley2020/06/22 11:44 AM
    Woo Hoo!!!!!!!hobold2020/06/22 12:15 PM
    ARM Mac Performance figuresChester2020/06/22 01:32 PM
      ARM Mac Performance figuresMaynard Handley2020/06/22 02:25 PM
        ARM Mac Performance figuresChester2020/06/22 02:45 PM
        ARM Mac Performance figuresAnne O. Nymous2020/06/22 02:48 PM
          ARM Mac Performance figuresanon2020/06/22 05:55 PM
            ARM Mac Performance figuresDoug S2020/06/22 06:22 PM
              ARM Mac Performance figuresMaynard Handley2020/06/22 07:39 PM
                Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you? (NT)nobody in particular2020/06/22 08:41 PM
                  Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you?anon2020/06/22 10:55 PM
                  Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you?Maynard Handley2020/06/22 11:48 PM
                    Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you?Doug S2020/06/23 02:00 AM
                      Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you?Maynard Handley2020/06/23 09:04 AM
                      Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you?Maynard Handley2020/06/23 10:28 AM
                ARM Mac Performance figuresAnne O. Nymous2020/06/23 01:45 AM
        I agree!David Kanter2020/06/22 06:55 PM
          Apple already answered...Jouni Osmala2020/06/23 01:48 AM
            "Performs like desktop" is so vague that it doesn't mean anything. (NT)Foo_2020/06/23 01:56 AM
              Consumes power like Laptop is less vague :D Jouni Osmala2020/06/23 02:26 AM
                Consumes power like Laptop is less vague :D Doug S2020/06/23 02:28 AM
                Consumes power like Laptop is less vague :D Foo_2020/06/23 04:59 AM
            Apple already answered...Doug S2020/06/23 02:27 AM
      ARM Mac Performance figurespgerassi2020/06/22 05:29 PM
        ARM Mac Performance figuresnobody in particular2020/06/22 05:55 PM
        ARM Mac Performance figuresMaynard Handley2020/06/22 07:55 PM
          ARM Mac Performance figurespgerassi2020/06/23 10:09 AM
            ARM Mac Performance figuresnobody in particular2020/06/23 01:30 PM
              ARM Mac Performance figurespgerassi2020/06/23 04:06 PM
                ARM Mac Performance figuresanon2020/06/23 05:26 PM
                ARM Mac Performance figuresnobody in particular2020/06/23 05:27 PM
                  ARM Mac Performance figurespgerassi2020/06/24 07:49 AM
                    ARM Mac Performance figuresFoo_2020/06/24 11:37 AM
                ARM Mac Performance figuresvvid2020/06/23 05:51 PM
                  ARM Mac Performance figurespgerassi2020/06/24 08:48 AM
                    ARM Mac Performance figuresJouni Osmala2020/06/24 10:23 AM
                    ARM Mac Performance figuresvvid2020/06/24 01:52 PM
                    ARM Mac Performance figuresanon2020/06/24 02:22 PM
      ARM Mac Performance figuresRonald Maas2020/06/22 11:52 PM
    "translated at install time"Doug S2020/06/22 03:47 PM
      They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install time (NT)anon2020/06/22 04:22 PM
        They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeDoug S2020/06/22 06:14 PM
          They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeMark Roulo2020/06/22 07:38 PM
            They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeDoug S2020/06/23 02:04 AM
              They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeMark Roulo2020/06/23 08:36 AM
          They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeMaynard Handley2020/06/22 08:04 PM
            They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timenobody in particular2020/06/22 08:44 PM
              They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeMaynard Handley2020/06/22 11:55 PM
              They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeAnne O. Nymous2020/06/23 01:51 AM
              They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timegallier22020/06/23 02:37 AM
          They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeNoSpammer2020/06/23 04:04 AM
  Additional detailsnobody in particular2020/06/22 11:53 AM
    Additional detailsjuanrga2020/06/22 12:06 PM
      Additional detailsMaynard Handley2020/06/22 12:13 PM
    Additional detailsBeastian2020/06/22 12:20 PM
    Additional detailsRonald Maas2020/06/22 10:36 PM
      Additional detailsanon22020/06/22 11:29 PM
      Additional detailsMaynard Handley2020/06/22 11:57 PM
        Additional detailsRonald Maas2020/06/23 12:10 AM
        BT remains hard and unsolved in generalhobold2020/06/23 01:07 AM
          BT remains hard and unsolved in generalAnne O. Nymous2020/06/23 01:58 AM
            BT remains hard and unsolved in generalDoug S2020/06/23 02:20 AM
              BT remains hard and unsolved in generalNoSpammer2020/06/23 03:45 AM
                BT remains hard and unsolved in generalDoug S2020/06/23 04:04 AM
                BT remains hard and unsolved in generalMaynard Handley2020/06/23 09:46 AM
              BT remains hard and unsolved in generaldmcq2020/06/23 04:00 AM
                BT remains hard and unsolved in generalDoug S2020/06/23 04:13 AM
                  BT remains hard and unsolved in generalRichard S2020/06/23 05:25 AM
                    BT remains hard and unsolved in generalDoug S2020/06/23 08:41 AM
              BT remains hard and unsolved in generalMaynard Handley2020/06/23 09:20 AM
          BT remains hard and unsolved in generalMaynard Handley2020/06/23 09:14 AM
            they are not actually transitioninghobold2020/06/24 03:33 AM
              they are not actually transitioningnobody in particular2020/06/24 04:22 AM
              they are not actually transitioningAnne O. Nymous2020/06/24 04:41 AM
                When the facts change...James2020/06/24 08:15 AM
                  When the facts change (Apple Silicon in 2006????)wumpus2020/06/25 10:51 AM
                    When the facts change (Apple Silicon in 2006????)Dummond D. Slow2020/06/25 03:33 PM
                      When the facts change (Apple Silicon in 2006????)Nikdo2020/06/25 06:39 PM
                        When the facts change (Apple Silicon in 2006????)wumpus2020/06/26 06:43 AM
                          PA-Semi purchase was an acqui-hireMark Roulo2020/06/26 06:56 AM
                            PA-Semi purchase was an acqui-hireUngo2020/06/26 10:47 PM
                they are not actually adding value?Daniel B2020/06/25 07:36 AM
                  they are not actually adding value?Ricardo B2020/06/25 12:11 PM
              they are not actually transitioningDoug S2020/06/24 10:08 AM
          BT remains hard and unsolved in generalUngo2020/06/24 01:49 AM
  Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Linus Torvalds2020/06/22 12:46 PM
    Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Linus Torvalds2020/06/22 12:55 PM
      Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Robert David Graham2020/06/22 01:34 PM
        Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Linus Torvalds2020/06/22 02:46 PM
      Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Doug S2020/06/22 03:50 PM
    Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Maynard Handley2020/06/22 01:28 PM
    Compaq AlphaYuhong Bao2020/06/22 06:08 PM
  How long before they unify OS X and iOS?anonymous22020/06/22 12:53 PM
    How long before they unify OS X and iOS?nobody in particular2020/06/22 12:55 PM
      How long before they unify OS X and iOS?anonymous22020/06/22 01:18 PM
        How long before they unify OS X and iOS?Doug S2020/06/23 02:36 AM
      How long before they unify OS X and iOS?Andrew Clough2020/06/22 05:00 PM
    How long before they unify OS X and iOS?Maynard Handley2020/06/22 01:31 PM
    How long before they unify OS X and iOS?James2020/06/23 02:19 AM
  Any idea which process? 7nm+ ? (NT)anonymous22020/06/22 02:26 PM
    Any idea which process? 7nm+ ?Maynard Handley2020/06/22 02:52 PM
  No point in getting Intel based Macsanonymous22020/06/23 05:08 PM
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