they are not actually adding value?

By: Daniel B (fejenagy.delete@this.gmail.com), June 25, 2020 7:36 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Anne O. Nymous (not.delete@this.real.address) on June 24, 2020 4:41 am wrote:
> hobold (hobold.delete@this.vectorizer.org) on June 24, 2020 3:33 am wrote:
> > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on June 23, 2020 9:14 am wrote:
> > > hobold (hobold.delete@this.vectorizer.org) on June 23, 2020 1:07 am wrote:
> > > > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on June 22, 2020 11:57 pm wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I've posted the wikipedia PPC->Intel transition page here like 10 times. I've explained
> > > > > many more times than that how this transition will follow that exact same script. And
> > > > > yet people refuse to listen up till the minute that the announcements occur.
> > > > >
> > > > Apple's history of transitions, both m68k -> PowerPC, and PowerPC -> x86, did follow the script
> > > >
> > > > 1. have a complicated and unreliable translator that works good
> > > > enough for stage presentations and very simple programs
> > > >
> > > > 2. quickly abandon the translation layer before it ever learns to deal with the hard cases
> > > >
> > > > Been there, observed that. Twice.
> > > >
> > > > You know how the saying goes: "Any sufficiently advanced
> > > > technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo."
> > >
> > > So what is your complaint?
> >
> > My complaint is that Apple is a marketing driven company, not a technology driven company.
> > Apple is promoting the image of being a technology leader. But that is merely propaganda
> > (or call it advertizing if the former term is too laden with war connotations).
> >
> > When Apple transitions ISAs, they punish those developers who had put extra effort into
> > tuning their software. Rosetta 1 didn't support AltiVec, Rosetta 2 doesn't support AVX.
> > Customers who invested in such software are getting punished as collateral damage.
> >
> > When Apple transitions ISAs, that happens because they
> > had bet on the wrong technology, or because they were
> > unable to make it succeed, despite all the marketing. When Apple transitions ISAs, that is the correction
> > of an earlier mistake. In the "best" case, an Apple ISA transition is an act of planned obsolescence.
> >
> > Rosetta 2 is stage magic. My complaint is that we, knowledgeable computer
> > experts, are falling for the same trick again. And again. And again.
> >
> >
> > The worst part is that Apple is not even transitioning. In the video keynote
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEZhD3J89ZE
> > at 1h46m00s, Tim Cook first says the transition will take two years. Immediately afterwards he
> > says new Intel based hardware is in the pipeline and will be supported for years to come.
> >
> > If a transition doesn't end, is it really a transition? It is all marketing. ARM Macs get the promise of a
> > bright future, so that enough customers actually buy them.
> > Intel Macs get the promise of comfortable retirement,
> > so that enough customers actually continue buying them. It is all marketing. We all fall for it.
> >
> > Third party software vendors having to do double the testing? Apple doesn't care. Third party Mac software
> > vendors effectively getting turned into unpaid Apple employees, just like with the iOS tightly controlled
> > app store? Oh, Apple very much does care, yes! And we will all cheer, because it's Apple.
> >
> > On the OS side, Apple is repeating Microsoft's mistake of forcing phone GUI metaphors
> > onto the desktop. Only this time, we will all cheer, because it's Apple.
> >
> >
> > Way back when Apple transitioned from PowerPC to Intel, I jokingly told some friends that
> > Intel's days are numbered, because Apple's processor makers all die sooner rather than
> > later. Turns out Apple was indeed prepared for that particular contingency. :-)
> >
> > But I am not a Wizard of the Dark Arts, so that curse is
> > a mere joke. And Apple will live, despite being their
> > own processor maker now. And we will all cheer Apple on. Even though we all should know better by now.
>
> I mostly agree with the core of your argument, but I evaluate things a bit differently.
>
> I for one consider being willing to change ISA/platform not a sign of weakness or a correction
> of an earlier error, but simply as good management, nobodies crystal ball actually works that well,
> and what might have been even an absolute optimal strategy/decision in the past might turn out
> to be a dead end in the near future. So flexibility and change per se are not bad things.
>
> But in this list even Maynard, who I classify as emotionally biased for Apple deference, argued
> that rosetta 2 is not intended to solve the hard ISA-emulation problem for good, but really just
> a helpful tool to allow to aintain the existing user base and give them peace of mind that they
> will not be forced to jettison all old code real soon now. (It being Apple, we all can assume that
> "not real soon now" does not equate "next to never", but that is the art of marketing).
>

I think a bigger point is that it's difficult to see what customers gain, ordinary or professional. Apple, if forces the issue, makes its ecosystem and customers go through a considerable disruption in exchange for nothing tangible other than higher in-house BOM content and even stronger gross margins for itself. It is difficult to see how exactly will performance or any 'user experience' be superior just because it's not a merchant but a captive design. Theoretical marketing arguments are easy to make. On the other hand of course, Apple customers are not exactly the paragon of self-interested agents, god bless their hearts. The previous ISA transition was, at least, beneficial to customers, largely because Apple waited so long a considerable performance gap opened up.
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TopicPosted ByDate
Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Maynard Handley2020/06/22 11:26 AM
  Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Maynard Handley2020/06/22 11:44 AM
    Woo Hoo!!!!!!!hobold2020/06/22 12:15 PM
    ARM Mac Performance figuresChester2020/06/22 01:32 PM
      ARM Mac Performance figuresMaynard Handley2020/06/22 02:25 PM
        ARM Mac Performance figuresChester2020/06/22 02:45 PM
        ARM Mac Performance figuresAnne O. Nymous2020/06/22 02:48 PM
          ARM Mac Performance figuresanon2020/06/22 05:55 PM
            ARM Mac Performance figuresDoug S2020/06/22 06:22 PM
              ARM Mac Performance figuresMaynard Handley2020/06/22 07:39 PM
                Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you? (NT)nobody in particular2020/06/22 08:41 PM
                  Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you?anon2020/06/22 10:55 PM
                  Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you?Maynard Handley2020/06/22 11:48 PM
                    Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you?Doug S2020/06/23 02:00 AM
                      Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you?Maynard Handley2020/06/23 09:04 AM
                      Why are you yelling at someone who agrees with you?Maynard Handley2020/06/23 10:28 AM
                ARM Mac Performance figuresAnne O. Nymous2020/06/23 01:45 AM
        I agree!David Kanter2020/06/22 06:55 PM
          Apple already answered...Jouni Osmala2020/06/23 01:48 AM
            "Performs like desktop" is so vague that it doesn't mean anything. (NT)Foo_2020/06/23 01:56 AM
              Consumes power like Laptop is less vague :D Jouni Osmala2020/06/23 02:26 AM
                Consumes power like Laptop is less vague :D Doug S2020/06/23 02:28 AM
                Consumes power like Laptop is less vague :D Foo_2020/06/23 04:59 AM
            Apple already answered...Doug S2020/06/23 02:27 AM
      ARM Mac Performance figurespgerassi2020/06/22 05:29 PM
        ARM Mac Performance figuresnobody in particular2020/06/22 05:55 PM
        ARM Mac Performance figuresMaynard Handley2020/06/22 07:55 PM
          ARM Mac Performance figurespgerassi2020/06/23 10:09 AM
            ARM Mac Performance figuresnobody in particular2020/06/23 01:30 PM
              ARM Mac Performance figurespgerassi2020/06/23 04:06 PM
                ARM Mac Performance figuresanon2020/06/23 05:26 PM
                ARM Mac Performance figuresnobody in particular2020/06/23 05:27 PM
                  ARM Mac Performance figurespgerassi2020/06/24 07:49 AM
                    ARM Mac Performance figuresFoo_2020/06/24 11:37 AM
                ARM Mac Performance figuresvvid2020/06/23 05:51 PM
                  ARM Mac Performance figurespgerassi2020/06/24 08:48 AM
                    ARM Mac Performance figuresJouni Osmala2020/06/24 10:23 AM
                    ARM Mac Performance figuresvvid2020/06/24 01:52 PM
                    ARM Mac Performance figuresanon2020/06/24 02:22 PM
      ARM Mac Performance figuresRonald Maas2020/06/22 11:52 PM
    "translated at install time"Doug S2020/06/22 03:47 PM
      They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install time (NT)anon2020/06/22 04:22 PM
        They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeDoug S2020/06/22 06:14 PM
          They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeMark Roulo2020/06/22 07:38 PM
            They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeDoug S2020/06/23 02:04 AM
              They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeMark Roulo2020/06/23 08:36 AM
          They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeMaynard Handley2020/06/22 08:04 PM
            They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timenobody in particular2020/06/22 08:44 PM
              They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeMaynard Handley2020/06/22 11:55 PM
              They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeAnne O. Nymous2020/06/23 01:51 AM
              They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timegallier22020/06/23 02:37 AM
          They're doing hybrid: both JIT/dynamic and install timeNoSpammer2020/06/23 04:04 AM
  Additional detailsnobody in particular2020/06/22 11:53 AM
    Additional detailsjuanrga2020/06/22 12:06 PM
      Additional detailsMaynard Handley2020/06/22 12:13 PM
    Additional detailsBeastian2020/06/22 12:20 PM
    Additional detailsRonald Maas2020/06/22 10:36 PM
      Additional detailsanon22020/06/22 11:29 PM
      Additional detailsMaynard Handley2020/06/22 11:57 PM
        Additional detailsRonald Maas2020/06/23 12:10 AM
        BT remains hard and unsolved in generalhobold2020/06/23 01:07 AM
          BT remains hard and unsolved in generalAnne O. Nymous2020/06/23 01:58 AM
            BT remains hard and unsolved in generalDoug S2020/06/23 02:20 AM
              BT remains hard and unsolved in generalNoSpammer2020/06/23 03:45 AM
                BT remains hard and unsolved in generalDoug S2020/06/23 04:04 AM
                BT remains hard and unsolved in generalMaynard Handley2020/06/23 09:46 AM
              BT remains hard and unsolved in generaldmcq2020/06/23 04:00 AM
                BT remains hard and unsolved in generalDoug S2020/06/23 04:13 AM
                  BT remains hard and unsolved in generalRichard S2020/06/23 05:25 AM
                    BT remains hard and unsolved in generalDoug S2020/06/23 08:41 AM
              BT remains hard and unsolved in generalMaynard Handley2020/06/23 09:20 AM
          BT remains hard and unsolved in generalMaynard Handley2020/06/23 09:14 AM
            they are not actually transitioninghobold2020/06/24 03:33 AM
              they are not actually transitioningnobody in particular2020/06/24 04:22 AM
              they are not actually transitioningAnne O. Nymous2020/06/24 04:41 AM
                When the facts change...James2020/06/24 08:15 AM
                  When the facts change (Apple Silicon in 2006????)wumpus2020/06/25 10:51 AM
                    When the facts change (Apple Silicon in 2006????)Dummond D. Slow2020/06/25 03:33 PM
                      When the facts change (Apple Silicon in 2006????)Nikdo2020/06/25 06:39 PM
                        When the facts change (Apple Silicon in 2006????)wumpus2020/06/26 06:43 AM
                          PA-Semi purchase was an acqui-hireMark Roulo2020/06/26 06:56 AM
                            PA-Semi purchase was an acqui-hireUngo2020/06/26 10:47 PM
                they are not actually adding value?Daniel B2020/06/25 07:36 AM
                  they are not actually adding value?Ricardo B2020/06/25 12:11 PM
              they are not actually transitioningDoug S2020/06/24 10:08 AM
          BT remains hard and unsolved in generalUngo2020/06/24 01:49 AM
  Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Linus Torvalds2020/06/22 12:46 PM
    Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Linus Torvalds2020/06/22 12:55 PM
      Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Robert David Graham2020/06/22 01:34 PM
        Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Linus Torvalds2020/06/22 02:46 PM
      Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Doug S2020/06/22 03:50 PM
    Woo Hoo!!!!!!!Maynard Handley2020/06/22 01:28 PM
    Compaq AlphaYuhong Bao2020/06/22 06:08 PM
  How long before they unify OS X and iOS?anonymous22020/06/22 12:53 PM
    How long before they unify OS X and iOS?nobody in particular2020/06/22 12:55 PM
      How long before they unify OS X and iOS?anonymous22020/06/22 01:18 PM
        How long before they unify OS X and iOS?Doug S2020/06/23 02:36 AM
      How long before they unify OS X and iOS?Andrew Clough2020/06/22 05:00 PM
    How long before they unify OS X and iOS?Maynard Handley2020/06/22 01:31 PM
    How long before they unify OS X and iOS?James2020/06/23 02:19 AM
  Any idea which process? 7nm+ ? (NT)anonymous22020/06/22 02:26 PM
    Any idea which process? 7nm+ ?Maynard Handley2020/06/22 02:52 PM
  No point in getting Intel based Macsanonymous22020/06/23 05:08 PM
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