AVX-512 with narrow ex units?

By: Jukka Larja (roskakori2006.delete@this.gmail.com), July 27, 2020 6:00 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Gabriele Svelto (gabriele.svelto.delete@this.gmail.com) on July 26, 2020 2:22 pm wrote:
> Eugene Nalimov (eugene.nalimov.delete@this.gmail.dot.com) on July 25, 2020 5:56 pm wrote:
> > Strange. In 2008-2009, when I worked on the Xbox tools at
> > Microsoft, lot of games used Xbox 360 vector extensions.
>
> I'd attribute that to the general weakness of the Xenon CPU. Weak scalar floating-point and low
> per-thread performance meant that leveraging the vector extensions was pretty much mandatory.

Well, depends on your definition of "mandatory". I'm pretty sure that majority of games didn't leverage them, except maybe indirectly via some libs.

For some context, a typical game at that time was still mostly single-threaded. When doing multi-threading, people were discussing if the coarse model of having a thread for audio, a thread for networking and so on was a way to go or whether to do more fine-grained parallelization (divide everything possible to millisecond scale tasks and run hundreds of them per frame).

You could say that it was "pretty much mandatory" to make use of the six threads available on Xenon CPU, but very few games seemed to be very good at it. Microsoft itself having trouble with CPU's weak memory model probably didn't help.

Similarly, on PS3 it was "pretty much mandatory" to make use of the six SPU in Cell (and the second thread on main core), but as is well known, it didn't work out very well for Sony.

All in all, doing fancy SIMD or threading optimizations instead of more cross-platform algorithmic optimizations tended to be pretty cumbersome. Some big studios (especially those big enough to get a direct line to Microsoft and Sony) obviously could do both, but those studios were and still are few.

It's also good to think about possible gains available. 128 bit SIMD gets you in really good case 4 times the base performance. If we presume 50 % boost from SMT (it was a very good boost, because the core was such crap in single-threaded execution), using all threads gets 4.5 times the baseline.

Those may sound like large numbers if you are used to some old code base where stupidities have been optimized out a decade or two ago. Game engines, however, are typically relatively young code. Technology marches forward and the gameplay code is almost by definition unique to each game (there are plenty of sequels and clones, but the details tend to live a lot). By the time SSE could have started to creep to game engines, they were already moving to GPU computing (which has potential for much more than 4 times the speedup).

Sure, some games have always done heroic tricks with whatever hardware is available, and those are the games that (technical) people talk about. Why would anyone (with technical perspective) talk about a game that didn't use SIMD or proper threading or some other form of cool optimization?

-JLarja
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    informative (NT)blue2020/07/11 11:40 AM
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      grumpyme2020/07/11 12:27 PM
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      area and power cost of AVX-512Anon2020/07/11 03:35 PM
        area and power cost of AVX-512Michael S2020/07/12 03:16 AM
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      area and power cost of AVX-512Travis Downs2020/07/11 06:19 PM
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      Alder Lake and AVX-512Ungo2020/07/11 04:28 PM
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      Alder Lake and AVX-512Linus Torvalds2020/07/11 05:51 PM
        Alder Lake and AVX-5122020/07/12 12:48 PM
          Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/12 02:07 PM
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                Thanks for the link (NT)David Kanter2020/07/12 05:43 PM
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        AVX-512 with narrow ex units?m2020/07/23 11:10 AM
          AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Anon2020/07/23 11:53 AM
            AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Paul A. Clayton2020/07/23 05:32 PM
              AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Anon2020/07/23 05:50 PM
                AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Paul A. Clayton2020/07/23 06:45 PM
                  AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Anon2020/07/23 07:15 PM
                    AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Jukka Larja2020/07/24 03:44 AM
                      AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Gabriele Svelto2020/07/24 01:56 PM
                        AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Jouni Osmala2020/07/24 08:22 PM
                          AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Jukka Larja2020/07/25 12:32 AM
                      AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Eugene Nalimov2020/07/25 04:56 PM
                        AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Jukka Larja2020/07/26 12:28 AM
                        AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Gabriele Svelto2020/07/26 01:22 PM
                          AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Jukka Larja2020/07/27 06:00 AM
          AVX-512 with narrow ex units?-.-2020/07/23 05:32 PM
            AVX-512 with narrow ex units?Travis Downs2020/07/24 04:01 PM
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      Alder Lake and AVX-512Chester2020/07/11 04:26 PM
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        Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/12 01:02 AM
        Alder Lake and AVX-512Travis Downs2020/07/13 08:01 PM
      Alder Lake and AVX-512Linus Torvalds2020/07/11 05:54 PM
        Alder Lake and AVX-512Jörn Engel2020/07/11 07:01 PM
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            Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/12 12:48 AM
            Alder Lake and AVX-512anon22020/07/12 06:13 PM
          Alder Lake and AVX-512Travis Downs2020/07/13 08:09 PM
            Alder Lake and AVX-512Jörn Engel2020/07/13 10:42 PM
      Alder Lake and AVX-512Doug S2020/07/11 10:49 PM
        Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/12 12:53 AM
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        Alder Lake and AVX-512anon22020/07/12 12:31 AM
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            Alder Lake and AVX-512anon22020/07/12 02:26 PM
              Alder Lake and AVX-512Anon32020/07/12 03:07 PM
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                              Itanium crappiness and EPIC - and could EPIC still have something good in it?anon22020/07/21 04:03 AM
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                              Itanium crappiness and EPIC - and could EPIC still have something good in it?j2020/07/21 07:54 AM
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                              Itanium crappiness and EPIC - and could EPIC still have something good in it?Linus Torvalds2020/07/21 08:13 AM
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                                    Turn that on its head?Anon2020/07/22 12:53 PM
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                                    Turn that on its head?anon32020/07/22 03:45 PM
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                                        Turn that on its head?Heikki Kultala2020/07/23 10:21 AM
                                          Turn that on its head?Brett2020/07/23 02:26 PM
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                                      Turn that on its head?anon2020/07/23 10:49 AM
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                          thanksChester2020/07/24 02:50 PM
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              Alder Lake and AVX-512Linus Torvalds2020/07/12 11:15 AM
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                      Alder Lake and AVX-512Linus Torvalds2020/07/12 03:25 PM
                        Alder Lake and AVX-512anonymou52020/07/12 07:34 PM
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                  Alder Lake and AVX-512gallier22020/07/13 01:11 AM
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                    Alder Lake and AVX-512Doug S2020/07/13 11:11 AM
                      Alder Lake and AVX-512Brett2020/07/14 01:34 AM
                        Alder Lake and AVX-512Linus Torvalds2020/07/14 08:02 AM
                          Alder Lake and AVX-512Maynard Handley2020/07/14 11:40 AM
                            Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/14 11:48 AM
                            Alder Lake and AVX-512Linus Torvalds2020/07/15 12:37 AM
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                                OS X file names normalizationSimon Farnsworth2020/07/15 03:16 AM
                                  OS X file names normalizationMichael S2020/07/15 09:51 AM
                                    OS X file names normalizationSimon Farnsworth2020/07/15 11:27 AM
                                OS X file names normalizationDoug S2020/07/15 09:46 AM
                                  OS X file names normalizationMichael S2020/07/15 10:05 AM
                                    OS X file names normalizationLinus Torvalds2020/07/15 11:58 AM
                                      OS X file names normalizationLinus Torvalds2020/07/15 01:21 PM
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                                        OS X file names normalizationLinus Torvalds2020/07/15 07:37 PM
                                          OS X file names normalizationAnon32020/07/16 12:43 PM
                                            OS X file names normalizationDoug S2020/07/16 02:38 PM
                                              OS X file names normalizationLinus Torvalds2020/07/16 11:21 PM
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                                                  OS X file names normalizationLinus Torvalds2020/07/17 08:41 AM
                                                    OS X file names normalizationDummond D. Slow2020/07/17 08:54 AM
                                                      OS X file names normalizationLinus Torvalds2020/07/17 09:16 AM
                                                      OS X file names normalizationSimon Farnsworth2020/07/18 05:12 AM
                                              OS X file names normalizationAnon32020/07/17 01:04 AM
                                                OS X file names normalizationDoug S2020/07/17 09:15 AM
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                Alder Lake and AVX-512Linus Torvalds2020/07/12 01:08 PM
                  Alder Lake and AVX-512Jörn Engel2020/07/12 05:26 PM
                    Alder Lake and AVX-512-.-2020/07/12 06:11 PM
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              Alder Lake and AVX-512Jörn Engel2020/07/13 09:10 AM
                Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/13 10:02 AM
                  Alder Lake and AVX-512Jörn Engel2020/07/13 10:22 AM
                    Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/13 11:10 AM
                      Alder Lake and AVX-512Jörn Engel2020/07/13 03:03 PM
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          Alder Lake and AVX-512Linus Torvalds2020/07/12 10:35 AM
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              ~80% of details are wrong. So what one can expect from conclusions? :(anonymous22020/07/12 11:50 AM
            Alder Lake and AVX-512nobody in particular2020/07/12 11:25 AM
              Alder Lake and AVX-512Linus Torvalds2020/07/12 11:37 AM
                Alder Lake and AVX-512nobody in particular2020/07/12 11:43 AM
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                    Alder Lake and AVX-512Maynard Handley2020/07/12 07:51 PM
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                    Configurable cache line size?dmcq2020/07/15 02:43 PM
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                      Configurable cache line size?Etienne2020/07/17 12:03 AM
                        Configurable cache line size?Hugo Décharnes2020/07/18 01:11 AM
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                      AVX-512/SVE & HPC (was: Alder Lake and AVX-512)zArchJon2020/07/17 12:16 PM
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                Some fundamentals haven't changed2020/07/24 03:24 PM
                  Some fundamentals haven't changeddmcq2020/07/25 06:58 AM
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                                          If they release the compiler, how they will blame the still-in-development compiler for the lacklustAnon2020/07/28 04:20 PM
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        Alder Lake and AVX-512-.-2020/07/11 08:07 PM
      Alder Lake and AVX-512j2020/07/12 11:29 PM
        Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/13 12:12 AM
          Alder Lake and AVX-512j2020/07/13 01:58 AM
            Alder Lake and AVX-512dmcq2020/07/13 03:53 PM
              Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/13 11:57 PM
                Alder Lake and AVX-512Maynard Handley2020/07/14 09:26 AM
                Alder Lake and AVX-512dmcq2020/07/14 11:33 AM
                  Alder Lake and AVX-512dmcq2020/07/14 02:43 PM
                    Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/14 11:55 PM
                      Alder Lake and AVX-512dmcq2020/07/15 01:19 AM
                        Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/15 01:34 AM
                          Alder Lake and AVX-512dmcq2020/07/15 02:03 AM
                            Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/15 08:43 AM
                              Alder Lake and AVX-512dmcq2020/07/15 08:54 AM
                                Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/15 10:35 AM
                                  Alder Lake and AVX-512dmcq2020/07/15 02:18 PM
                                    GV100 + POWER9Michael S2020/07/16 12:17 AM
                                      GV100 + POWER9dmcq2020/07/16 07:58 AM
                                        GV100 + POWER9dmcq2020/07/16 08:10 AM
                        Alder Lake and AVX-512dmcq2020/07/15 01:48 AM
    Alder Lake and AVX-512o2020/07/12 02:08 AM
    Alder Lake and AVX-5122020/07/12 10:07 AM
      Alder Lake and AVX-5122020/07/12 10:32 AM
      Alder Lake and AVX-512Linus Torvalds2020/07/12 10:39 AM
        Alder Lake and AVX-5122020/07/12 11:47 AM
        Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/12 12:18 PM
          x87 crapHeikki Kultala2020/07/12 12:30 PM
            x87 crapMichael S2020/07/12 12:37 PM
              x87 crapHeikki kultala2020/07/12 01:11 PM
                x87 crapMichael S2020/07/12 01:50 PM
                  Sparc and PA-RISC vs pentium FP performanceHeikki Kultala2020/07/13 12:14 AM
                    Sparc and PA-RISC vs pentium FP performanceanonymous22020/07/13 09:48 AM
          Alder Lake and AVX-512Doug S2020/07/12 02:33 PM
            Alder Lake and AVX-512Michael S2020/07/12 03:10 PM
    Alder Lake and AVX-512David Kanter2020/07/12 04:01 PM
      Alder Lake and AVX-512anon2020/07/12 04:40 PM
      ~0% of users do much FP outside of GPUs for games (NT)anonymous22020/07/12 04:47 PM
        ~0% of users do much FP outside of GPUs for gamesMaynard Handley2020/07/12 11:26 PM
        not trueChester2020/07/12 11:37 PM
          not trueMichael S2020/07/13 12:29 AM
            not trueChester2020/07/13 12:59 AM
              not trueanonymous22020/07/13 09:32 AM
                not trueMaynard Handley2020/07/13 01:30 PM
                  not trueChester2020/07/14 04:47 AM
            not trueDoug S2020/07/13 11:30 AM
              not trueAnon2020/07/13 12:16 PM
                not trueMaynard Handley2020/07/13 01:39 PM
              not trueMaynard Handley2020/07/13 01:38 PM
          not trueLinus Torvalds2020/07/13 10:27 AM
            not trueDummond D. Slow2020/07/13 01:10 PM
              not trueMaynard Handley2020/07/13 01:49 PM
                not trueDummond D. Slow2020/07/13 02:38 PM
            not true (about FP, not avx-512)Chester2020/07/17 09:37 AM
  Alder Lake and AVX-512Travis Downs2020/07/11 05:45 PM
    Alder Lake and AVX-512-.-2020/07/11 05:57 PM
      Alder Lake and AVX-512-.-2020/07/12 03:26 PM
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