Source of ARM ISA advantage?

By: joema (joema4.delete.delete@this.this.gmail.com), August 15, 2020 9:48 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Apple's Ax CPUs marching up the performance curve while retaining improved power/perf, plus NUVIA Phoenix claims have raised important architectural issues. Namely -- is the advantage real, can it be sustained and from where does it come? Background:

From the 80s to approx. late-90s the general view was RISC had advantages which derived from the ISA and associated elements.

Then with the Pentium Pro using micro-ops it appeared x86 could essentially equal RISC performance and power/performance, provided sufficient fabrication investment and micro-architecture.

That view was (and is) common today, e.g, "If ARM could ever scale to Xeon or EPYC levels it would burn the same amount of power and wouldn't be any faster." This is summarized in "A Detailed Analysis of Contemporary ARM and x86 Architectures" (Blem, 2013): https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a694/f3583ca033904d9d3073d3693feac585a2bb.pdf

Superficially this seems plausible. If POWER9 could demonstrate greatly improved performance or power/performance vs Xeon or EPYC Gen 2, where is that? Won't a higher-performance Ax simply be like POWER9?

But -- today we have A12Z having roughly equal single & multi-core perf. as a 4-core 4.2 Ghz i7-7700K, while burning vastly less power. The A13 in my iPhone has better single-core perf than the i9-9980HK Coffee Lake CPU in my 2019 MacBook Pro 16. So it's not theoretical -- at least at that level. We have Patterson saying he's been right all along, it's the ISA.

Will a Xeon-level Ax retain power/perf. advantages as it approaches that level? Can it even equal the multi-core perf. of 10-core Tiger Lake while burning (say) half the power and having half the fabrication cost? If so, exactly where does this magic come from and why is it now possible?
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TopicPosted ByDate
Source of ARM ISA advantage?joema2020/08/15 09:48 AM
  Source of ARM ISA advantage?David Kanter2020/08/15 10:23 AM
    Source of ARM ISA advantage?Linus Torvalds2020/08/15 11:35 AM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Maynard Handley2020/08/15 02:26 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Rayla2020/08/15 03:13 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/15 03:27 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Kevin G2020/08/15 06:06 PM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?anon22020/08/15 08:40 PM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Kevin G2020/08/15 05:46 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/15 09:15 PM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Kevin G2020/08/17 10:39 AM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/17 03:14 PM
    Source of ARM ISA advantage?Maynard Handley2020/08/15 02:06 PM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/15 02:23 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/15 03:14 PM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?anon22020/08/15 04:16 PM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?me2020/08/15 05:29 PM
              Please rephrase your question (NT)anon22020/08/15 06:25 PM
                He hinted - contra your assertion - that AMD's poor core designs were independent of their process (NT)anon2020/08/15 09:14 PM
                  I made no such assertion (NT)anon22020/08/15 09:38 PM
                    Reread what he quoted - for comprehension this time (NT)anon2020/08/15 10:14 PM
                      You're still wrong - I made no such assertion (NT)anon22020/08/16 12:13 AM
                    Jaguarme2020/08/16 10:59 AM
                      Jaguaranon22020/08/16 05:31 PM
            Well said (NT)anonX2020/08/17 02:57 PM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/15 04:22 PM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?juanrga2020/08/16 07:34 AM
              Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 09:33 AM
                Source of ARM ISA advantage?Dummond D. Slow2020/08/16 09:47 AM
                  Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 11:02 AM
                    Source of ARM ISA advantage?blue2020/08/16 12:05 PM
                      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 04:26 PM
                        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/16 05:54 PM
                      Source of ARM ISA advantage?IntelUser20002020/08/16 09:14 PM
                        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Niels Jørgen Kruse2020/08/16 11:20 PM
                          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/17 03:15 PM
                          Source of ARM ISA advantage?IntelUser20002020/08/17 08:05 PM
                        Source of ARM ISA advantage?David Hess2020/09/15 07:37 PM
                          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/09/16 01:21 PM
                  Silverthorne vs Cortex-A9Wilco2020/08/16 11:33 AM
                    Silverthorne vs Cortex-A9IntelUser20002020/08/16 08:54 PM
                      Silverthorne vs Cortex-A9IntelUser20002020/08/16 09:00 PM
                        Silverthorne vs Cortex-A9IntelUser20002020/08/16 09:01 PM
                      Silverthorne vs Cortex-A9Jonathan2020/08/17 07:59 AM
                        Silverthorne vs Cortex-A9none2020/08/17 08:06 AM
                          Silverthorne vs Cortex-A9Jonathan2020/08/17 10:32 AM
                Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/16 12:00 PM
                  Source of ARM ISA advantage?juanrga2020/08/16 11:55 PM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/15 06:46 PM
            2) Rocket Lake (NT)vvid2020/08/16 03:23 AM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Dummond D. Slow2020/08/15 04:08 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Maynard Handley2020/08/15 05:43 PM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/15 06:11 PM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Maynard Handley2020/08/15 08:39 PM
              Source of ARM ISA advantage?Dummond D. Slow2020/08/16 06:32 AM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/08/15 11:29 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/16 12:05 PM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/08/17 12:43 AM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/17 03:19 PM
              Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/08/17 06:12 PM
                Source of ARM ISA advantage?Maynard Handley2020/08/17 07:47 PM
                Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/17 10:06 PM
    Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/15 03:55 PM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/15 06:19 PM
        AMD's Power Envelope blue2020/08/15 09:36 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/15 09:40 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?sr2020/08/16 12:40 AM
    Source of ARM ISA advantage?another anon2020/08/15 09:49 PM
    Source of ARM ISA advantage?Ronald Maas2020/08/15 11:11 PM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?anon2020/08/16 02:42 AM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?juanrga2020/08/16 07:57 AM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Ronald Maas2020/08/16 08:31 AM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?anon2020/08/16 09:14 AM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Ronald Maas2020/08/16 09:57 AM
              Code DensityBeastian2020/08/22 01:10 AM
                Code DensityLinus Torvalds2020/08/22 09:56 AM
                Code Densityjuanrga2020/08/22 11:27 AM
                  The significance of code density?Marcus2020/08/25 12:59 AM
                    The significance of code density?random-lurker2020/08/25 08:39 AM
                      The significance of code density?Marcus2020/08/25 10:23 PM
                Code DensityTravis Downs2020/08/22 05:27 PM
                  Code DensityLinus Torvalds2020/08/22 05:42 PM
                    Code Densitynoko2020/08/22 06:40 PM
                      Code DensityMaynard Handley2020/08/22 08:57 PM
                        Code Densitydmcq2020/08/23 08:49 AM
                    Code DensityMaynard Handley2020/08/22 08:54 PM
                      Code DensityLinus Torvalds2020/08/23 05:45 PM
                      Code DensityJonathan2020/08/25 10:07 PM
                        Code DensityMaynard Handley2020/08/26 07:27 PM
                          Code DensityJonathan2020/08/26 11:26 PM
                            Code DensityJonathan2020/08/26 11:36 PM
                              Code DensityWilco2020/08/27 02:35 AM
                                Code DensityJonathan2020/08/27 06:49 AM
                                  Code DensityMaynard Handley2020/08/27 10:21 AM
                                  Code DensityDoug S2020/08/27 10:24 AM
                                    Code DensityAnon2020/08/27 01:56 PM
                                      Code DensityMaynard Handley2020/08/27 02:35 PM
                                        Code DensityAnon2020/08/27 03:13 PM
                                          Code DensityWilco2020/08/27 04:07 PM
                                            Code DensityAnon2020/08/27 04:19 PM
                                              Code DensityWilco Dijkstra2020/08/29 04:24 AM
                                            Code DensityLinus Torvalds2020/08/28 10:32 AM
                                              Code DensityWilco2020/08/29 03:26 PM
                                          Code Densitydmcq2020/08/27 04:40 PM
                                          Code DensityJonathan2020/08/28 10:03 AM
                                        My 66000 has VLE with 32b parcelsPaul A. Clayton2020/08/28 12:05 PM
                                      padding bits is all the same for vari-length (NT)incorrector2020/08/28 12:18 AM
                                  Code DensityWilco2020/08/28 05:01 AM
                                Code DensityMaynard Handley2020/08/27 10:06 AM
                            Code DensityMaynard Handley2020/08/27 10:03 AM
                    Code DensityTravis Downs2020/08/24 03:24 PM
                  Code DensityBeastian2020/08/22 08:12 PM
                    Code DensityJouni Osmala2020/08/23 03:23 AM
                      Code DensityGabriele Svelto2020/08/24 12:04 PM
                        Code DensityJouni Osmala2020/08/24 08:10 PM
                          Code DensityGabriele Svelto2020/08/25 12:08 AM
                AArch64 is 10% denserWilco2020/08/25 02:41 AM
                  AArch64 is 10% denserGabriele Svelto2020/08/25 03:26 PM
                    AArch64 is 10% denserDoug S2020/08/25 07:53 PM
                      AArch64 is 10% denserMaynard Handley2020/08/25 09:06 PM
                      AArch64 is 10% denserGabriele Svelto2020/08/26 02:13 AM
                        AArch64 is 10% denserDoug S2020/08/26 05:46 AM
                          AArch64 is 10% denserWilco2020/08/27 02:50 AM
                            AArch64 is 10% denserGabriele Svelto2020/08/27 03:00 PM
                            AArch64 is 10% denserMaynard Handley2020/08/28 01:21 PM
                  Compiler variation?anonymous22020/08/25 07:27 PM
                    Compiler variation?Eric Bron2020/08/26 04:55 AM
                      Compiler variation?Wilco2020/08/27 03:23 AM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?juanrga2020/08/17 12:05 AM
              Source of ARM ISA advantage?Chester2020/08/17 01:41 AM
                Source of ARM ISA advantage?juanrga2020/08/18 10:50 AM
              There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeHeikki Kultala2020/08/17 01:46 AM
                There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakejuanrga2020/08/18 10:57 AM
                  There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeDummond D. Slow2020/08/18 01:31 PM
                    There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeMaynard Handley2020/08/18 05:13 PM
                      There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakejuanrga2020/08/19 12:11 AM
                        There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeDummond D. Slow2020/08/19 05:38 AM
                          There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeMaynard Handley2020/08/19 10:05 AM
                            There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeDummond D. Slow2020/08/19 10:12 AM
                              There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeMaynard Handley2020/08/19 12:17 PM
                                There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeDummond D. Slow2020/08/19 01:19 PM
                                  There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeMaynard Handley2020/08/19 02:47 PM
                                    There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeDummond D. Slow2020/08/19 04:16 PM
                                  There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeAnon32020/08/19 03:41 PM
                                    There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeWilco2020/08/20 02:41 AM
                                      There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakeanon.12020/08/21 07:04 AM
                                        There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeAnon A. Anonymous2020/08/21 07:41 AM
                                          There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakeanon.12020/08/21 09:33 AM
                                            There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakeanon.12020/08/21 09:34 AM
                                              There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakeanon.12020/08/21 09:43 AM
                                                There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeWilco2020/08/22 06:15 AM
                          There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakejuanrga2020/08/20 04:19 AM
                            Pipeline lengthssr§2020/08/21 01:33 PM
                              Pipeline lengthsDummond D. Slow2020/08/21 05:44 PM
                              Pipeline lengthsjuanrga2020/08/22 05:35 AM
                    There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakejuanrga2020/08/19 12:07 AM
                      There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeHeikki Kultala2020/08/19 02:50 PM
                        There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakejuanrga2020/08/20 04:27 AM
                          Please, stop the straw man argumentation and goalpost movingHeikki Kultala2020/08/20 02:20 PM
                            Stop trollingjuanrga2020/08/21 02:50 AM
                              ironic (NT)anonymous92020/08/22 08:36 PM
                  There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeDoug S2020/08/18 03:37 PM
                    There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeMaynard Handley2020/08/18 05:16 PM
                    There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakejuanrga2020/08/19 12:18 AM
                  There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeHeikki Kultala2020/08/18 10:30 PM
                    There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakejuanrga2020/08/19 12:31 AM
                      There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeDummond D. Slow2020/08/19 05:49 AM
                        There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeWilco2020/08/20 03:02 AM
                          There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeDummond D. Slow2020/08/20 07:52 AM
                      There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeHeikki Kultala2020/08/19 02:32 PM
                        There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or SkylakeMaynard Handley2020/08/19 03:50 PM
                          mostly agree, though there is pipeline length differenceHeikki Kultala2020/08/20 03:38 PM
                            Why should Apple aim to match Intel clock rates?Doug S2020/08/20 09:57 PM
                              Why should Apple aim to match Intel clock rates?Dummond D. Slow2020/08/21 08:17 AM
                                Why should Apple aim to match Intel clock rates?juanrga2020/08/21 09:17 AM
                                Why should Apple aim to match Intel clock rates?Doug S2020/08/21 11:08 AM
                                  Why should Apple aim to match Intel clock rates?Dummond D. Slow2020/08/21 12:16 PM
                                    Why should Apple aim to match Intel clock rates?Doug S2020/08/21 03:36 PM
                            mostly agree, though there is pipeline length differencejuanrga2020/08/21 02:57 AM
                        There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakenone2020/08/19 11:17 PM
                          A72 vs A73 etc.Heikki Kultala2020/08/20 02:10 PM
                        There are no "similar" ARM cores than zen2 or Skylakejuanrga2020/08/20 05:16 AM
              Source of ARM ISA advantage?Dummond D. Slow2020/08/17 12:04 PM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?different anon2020/08/22 07:18 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?dmcq2020/08/22 04:37 PM
  Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/15 12:24 PM
    Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/15 03:30 PM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/15 06:22 PM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?anon2020/08/16 02:48 AM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/16 12:36 PM
  Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/15 04:32 PM
    Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/15 06:43 PM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Maynard Handley2020/08/15 08:53 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/15 10:29 PM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Maynard Handley2020/08/15 10:56 PM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/15 11:17 PM
              Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 05:26 AM
                Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/16 06:27 AM
                  Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 07:21 AM
                    Source of ARM ISA advantage?Dummond D. Slow2020/08/16 07:37 AM
                      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 09:23 AM
                        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/08/16 11:22 AM
                          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 12:22 PM
                            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Rayla2020/08/16 12:56 PM
                            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/08/17 12:14 AM
                            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/08/17 01:42 AM
                              Source of ARM ISA advantage?none2020/08/17 01:58 AM
                                Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/08/17 02:18 AM
                                  Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/08/17 03:11 AM
                                Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/17 04:32 AM
                                  Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/08/17 04:42 AM
                                    Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/08/17 07:17 AM
                                  Source of ARM ISA advantage?none2020/08/17 04:43 AM
                          Source of ARM ISA advantage?juanrga2020/08/17 12:28 AM
                          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Foo_2020/08/17 02:41 AM
                          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Adrian2020/09/22 06:58 AM
                    Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/16 12:01 PM
                      Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 02:54 PM
                        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/17 03:13 PM
                          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Maynard Handley2020/08/17 05:09 PM
                            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/17 10:12 PM
                              Source of ARM ISA advantage?dmcq2020/08/18 07:20 AM
                                Source of ARM ISA advantage?Doug S2020/08/18 10:57 AM
                          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/18 03:18 AM
                            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/18 11:02 AM
                              Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/18 01:26 PM
                                Source of ARM ISA advantage?Anon2020/08/18 01:44 PM
                                  Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/21 03:16 AM
                                    Source of ARM ISA advantage?mcq2020/08/21 11:25 AM
                      Source of ARM ISA advantage?none2020/08/17 12:56 AM
                    Source of ARM ISA advantage?none2020/08/19 07:26 AM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 06:01 AM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?David Kanter2020/08/16 04:25 PM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 05:21 PM
        Source of ARM ISA advantage?Dummond D. Slow2020/08/16 06:20 AM
          Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 06:30 AM
            Source of ARM ISA advantage?Dummond D. Slow2020/08/16 06:42 AM
              Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/16 10:11 AM
                Source of ARM ISA advantage?Chester2020/08/17 01:24 AM
                  Source of ARM ISA advantage?Wilco2020/08/17 02:54 AM
  Source of ARM ISA advantage?juanrga2020/08/16 07:17 AM
    Source of ARM ISA advantage?blue2020/08/16 12:13 PM
      Source of ARM ISA advantage?juanrga2020/08/17 12:38 AM
        AMD now, not in the pastblue2020/08/17 02:26 AM
          If (when?) ARM makes economic sense AMD will jump right on it (NT)anonymous22020/08/17 03:14 PM
            If (when?) ARM makes economic sense AMD will jump right on itMaynard Handley2020/08/17 05:13 PM
              If (when?) ARM makes economic sense AMD will jump right on itAnon2020/08/18 01:50 AM
                If (when?) ARM makes economic sense AMD will jump right on itdmcq2020/08/18 07:10 AM
                  If (when?) ARM makes economic sense AMD will jump right on itjuanrga2020/08/18 11:02 AM
              If (when?) ARM makes economic sense AMD will jump right on itjuanrga2020/08/18 10:57 AM
          AMD now, not in the pastjuanrga2020/08/18 10:54 AM
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