Question to Torvalds

By: Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org), January 10, 2021 7:22 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on January 10, 2021 7:15 pm wrote:
> anon2 (anon.delete@this.anon.com) on January 10, 2021 6:21 pm wrote:
> > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on January 9, 2021 3:12 pm wrote:
> > > bakk (bakk.delete@this.tuta.io) on January 9, 2021 2:35 pm wrote:
> > > > Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org) on November 14, 2020 1:12 pm wrote:
> > > > > Paul (pavel.delete@this.noa-labs.com) on November 14, 2020 3:08 am wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What do you think of the new Apple laptop?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd absolutely love to have one, if it just ran Linux.. I have fairly fond memories
> > > > > of the 11" Macbook Air (I think 4,1) that I used about a decade ago (but moved away
> > > > > from because it took Apple too long to fix the screen - and by the time they did, I'd
> > > > > moved on to better laptops, and Apple had moved on to make Linux less convenient).
> > > > >
> > > > > Apple may run Linux in their cloud, but their laptops don't ;(
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been waiting for an ARM laptop that can run Linux for a long time. The new
> > > > > Air would be almost perfect, except for the OS. And I don't have the time to tinker
> > > > > with it, or the inclination to fight companies that don't want to help.
> > > > >
> > > > > Linus
> > > >
> > > > This is actually being worked on by Hector Martin and Alyssa Rosenzweig. https://asahilinux.org/
> > >
> > > The page explains everything except the most important question: why bother?
> > > I ask this seriously: what does achieving raw metal linux achieve over VM linux?
> > >
> > > OK, sure, it's a fun hobby, whatever, we all have our hobbies.
> > > But should anyone with a different hobby care?
> > >
> >
> > Serious answer since you seem to genuinely not know, several possible reasons.
> >
> > - Bare metal performs better.
>
> How much so? Especially when the drivers for GPU, NPU etc will be sub-optimal.
>
> > - Linux generally performs better than OSX, this can have small or large impact in the
> > host layer depending on what hypervisor and guest configuration is used, but it is non-zero.
> > What hypervisor ships with OSX, by the way? How does it compare with KVM?
>
> Might I politely suggest that if you don't know the answer to questions like this, perhaps your
> opinion on this subject is driven rather more by opinion than by technology? And perhaps you should
> put yourself more in the position, like me, of asking questions than trying to answer them?
> https://developer.apple.com/documentation/hypervisor
> https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization
>
> If you want an out the box solution (what Apple provides is essentially APIs to write what you need), Parallels
> Desktop is what you would expect from commercial software. Still in beta but supposedly close to release.
> https://www.parallels.com/blogs/parallels-desktop-apple-silicon-mac/
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2020-December/041288.html
>
> If you want OSS, QEMU is being actively worked on
> https://www.xda-developers.com/apple-silicon-mac-boot-windows-10-and-linux-virtualization/
>
> > - Virtualization has some administration overhead. There are some benefits of
> > it as well, but if you wanted those and wanted to minimize "tinkering", then
> > you would use Linux on Linux/KVM, OSX is a new thing you have to work with.
> > - OS debugging and performance work is easier without a hypervisor, and much
> > easier with a hypervisor you know and can easily modify if required.
> >
> > Probably others, but this is enough that someone like Linus who knows Linux very well
> > and doesn't want to tinker with proprietary software would avoid Linux in a VM on OSX.
>
> These all strike me as hobby reasons.
> What I mean is that suppose you're a business presented with the option of "run Linux in a VM
> on macOS. It will get access to accelerated hardware, won't require reducing the machine security,
> is supported by Apple. Only downside is that it might run ?3%? slower than native".
> What do you think a business owner will say?
>
> My point is not that Linux exists to be run by business owners or anything like that. My point is that this
> being done for the sake of showing that it can be done, as a challenge, as a fun exercise. That's a hobby.
> It's not being done as the foundation of a business, something
> done because it meets a need that people will pay money for.
>

Here's an especially recent update on the current state of things (only two months after release, remember), with some rough performance numbers.
https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1473419
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TopicPosted ByDate
Question to TorvaldsPaul2020/11/14 03:08 AM
  Question to TorvaldsLinus Torvalds2020/11/14 01:12 PM
    Question to Torvaldsnever_released2020/11/14 04:12 PM
      Question to TorvaldsDoug S2020/11/15 08:55 AM
        Question to Torvaldsnever_released2020/11/15 11:31 AM
          Question to TorvaldsDoug S2020/11/16 09:46 AM
            Question to TorvaldsMaxwell2020/11/16 10:49 AM
              Question to Torvaldsnever_released2020/11/16 03:25 PM
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    Question to Torvaldsme2020/11/22 11:11 AM
    Question to TorvaldsJames2020/11/25 05:59 AM
    Question to Torvaldsbakk2021/01/09 02:35 PM
      Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/09 03:12 PM
        He asked disingenuously (NT)JS2021/01/09 07:33 PM
          He asked disingenuouslyMaynard Handley2021/01/10 09:51 AM
            He asked disingenuouslyJS2021/01/10 02:50 PM
              He asked disingenuouslyMaynard Handley2021/01/10 05:02 PM
        Question to Torvaldsanon2021/01/10 06:01 PM
          Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/10 06:59 PM
            Question to Torvaldsanon2021/01/11 08:56 AM
              Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/12 04:50 AM
        Question to Torvaldsanon22021/01/10 06:21 PM
          Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/10 07:15 PM
            Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/10 07:22 PM
            Question to Torvaldsanon22021/01/10 07:47 PM
              Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/10 08:28 PM
                Question to Torvaldsanon22021/01/10 09:36 PM
        Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/11 05:21 AM
          Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/11 09:33 AM
            Question to Torvaldsanon22021/01/11 09:40 PM
            Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/12 05:05 AM
              Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/12 08:42 AM
                Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/12 10:15 AM
                  Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/12 11:07 AM
                    Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/13 05:24 AM
                      Question to TorvaldsMichael S2021/01/13 07:45 AM
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        Question to TorvaldsJörn Engel2021/01/13 08:49 AM
          Question to TorvaldsEtienne Lorrain2021/01/14 02:02 AM
            Question to Torvaldsdmcq2021/01/14 07:26 AM
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                    Question to Torvaldsdmcq2021/01/15 07:27 AM
                      Question to TorvaldsAnne O. Nymous2021/01/15 11:19 AM
                        Question to Torvaldsdmcq2021/01/15 01:58 PM
                          Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/15 08:04 PM
                            Question to Torvaldsdmcq2021/01/16 01:50 AM
                              Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/16 08:37 PM
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                                  Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/17 08:35 AM
                                    Question to Torvaldsdmcq2021/01/17 09:01 AM
                                      Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/17 09:52 AM
            Question to TorvaldsDoug S2021/01/14 09:37 AM
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