Question to Torvalds

By: anon2 (anon.delete@this.anon.com), January 10, 2021 9:36 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on January 10, 2021 8:28 pm wrote:
> anon2 (anon.delete@this.anon.com) on January 10, 2021 7:47 pm wrote:
> > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on January 10, 2021 7:15 pm wrote:
> > > anon2 (anon.delete@this.anon.com) on January 10, 2021 6:21 pm wrote:
> > > > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on January 9, 2021 3:12 pm wrote:
> > > > > bakk (bakk.delete@this.tuta.io) on January 9, 2021 2:35 pm wrote:
> > > > > > Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org) on November 14, 2020 1:12 pm wrote:
> > > > > > > Paul (pavel.delete@this.noa-labs.com) on November 14, 2020 3:08 am wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What do you think of the new Apple laptop?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'd absolutely love to have one, if it just ran Linux.. I have fairly fond memories
> > > > > > > of the 11" Macbook Air (I think 4,1) that I used about a decade ago (but moved away
> > > > > > > from because it took Apple too long to fix the screen - and by the time they did, I'd
> > > > > > > moved on to better laptops, and Apple had moved on to make Linux less convenient).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Apple may run Linux in their cloud, but their laptops don't ;(
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've been waiting for an ARM laptop that can run Linux for a long time. The new
> > > > > > > Air would be almost perfect, except for the OS. And I don't have the time to tinker
> > > > > > > with it, or the inclination to fight companies that don't want to help.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Linus
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is actually being worked on by Hector Martin and Alyssa Rosenzweig. https://asahilinux.org/
> > > > >
> > > > > The page explains everything except the most important question: why bother?
> > > > > I ask this seriously: what does achieving raw metal linux achieve over VM linux?
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, sure, it's a fun hobby, whatever, we all have our hobbies.
> > > > > But should anyone with a different hobby care?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Serious answer since you seem to genuinely not know, several possible reasons.
> > > >
> > > > - Bare metal performs better.
> > >
> > > How much so?
> >
> > Depends on many things of course.
> >
> > > Especially when the drivers for GPU, NPU etc will be sub-optimal.
> >
> > Not "especially" at all. Bare metal performs better. I never said bare metal
> > with inferior drivers performs better than VM with better drivers.
> >
> > > > - Linux generally performs better than OSX, this can have small or large impact in the
> > > > host layer depending on what hypervisor and guest configuration is used, but it is non-zero.
> > > > What hypervisor ships with OSX, by the way? How does it compare with KVM?
> > >
> > > Might I politely suggest that if you don't know the answer to questions like this, perhaps your
> > > opinion on this subject is driven rather more by opinion than by technology?
> >
> > No, none of my answer depends on what hypervisor is being used in OSX. Even if it
> > was something fully open source, it would be less familiar for Linus to work on.
> >
> > Try not to get bogged down on the trees and miss the forest next time. Take a
> > breath, accept OSX is not the best at everything, and re-read what I wrote.
> >
> > > And perhaps you should
> > > put yourself more in the position, like me, of asking questions than trying to answer them?
> > > https://developer.apple.com/documentation/hypervisor
> > > https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization
> > >
> > > If you want an out the box solution (what Apple provides
> > > is essentially APIs to write what you need), Parallels
> > > Desktop is what you would expect from commercial software. Still in beta but supposedly close to release.
> > > https://www.parallels.com/blogs/parallels-desktop-apple-silicon-mac/
> > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2020-December/041288.html
> > >
> > > If you want OSS, QEMU is being actively worked on
> > > https://www.xda-developers.com/apple-silicon-mac-boot-windows-10-and-linux-virtualization/
> > >
> > > > - Virtualization has some administration overhead. There are some benefits of
> > > > it as well, but if you wanted those and wanted to minimize "tinkering", then
> > > > you would use Linux on Linux/KVM, OSX is a new thing you have to work with.
> > > > - OS debugging and performance work is easier without a hypervisor, and much
> > > > easier with a hypervisor you know and can easily modify if required.
> > > >
> > > > Probably others, but this is enough that someone like Linus who knows Linux very well
> > > > and doesn't want to tinker with proprietary software would avoid Linux in a VM on OSX.
> > >
> > > These all strike me as hobby reasons.
> >
> > That's because you don't understand them, or OS development.
> >
> > > What I mean is that suppose you're a business presented with the option of "run Linux in a VM
> > > on macOS. It will get access to accelerated hardware, won't require reducing the machine security,
> > > is supported by Apple. Only downside is that it might run ?3%? slower than native".
> > > What do you think a business owner will say?
> >
> > Forest, trees, etc. Read the thread you are replying to -- Linus
> > does not want to use OSX, absolutely not for "hobby" reasons.
> >
> > This bare metal project may be a hobby, but the reasons you
> > might use it (if it ended up working) are absolutely valid.
> >
> > >
> > > My point is not that Linux exists to be run by business owners or anything like that. My point is that this
> > > being done for the sake of showing that it can be done, as a challenge, as a fun exercise. That's a hobby.
> > > It's not being done as the foundation of a business, something
> > > done because it meets a need that people will pay money for.
> > >
> >
> > Ahh yes, "business reasons".
> >
> > Sure, 99.9% of M1 users would be perfectly happy with OSX and never use Linux at all even
> > if it was available. Of that 0.1%, 99.9% of them would be perfectly fine to use Linux in
> > a VM on the occasion they need it, same as pre-M1 Apples. None of these people or this market
> > share has any bearing of why Linus doesn't want to use M1 despite it sounds like just about
> > the best hardware for him (enough for him to overlook memory capacity disadvantage).
>
>
> Perhaps, since at least some people on this thread are willing to accept teaching moments,

Ahh, in that case let us see if you practice what you preach.

> you might do me the courtesy of not assuming you think you know what's in my mind.
> I did not reply to Linus' input at the top of the thread. I replied to
>
> > > > > > This is actually being worked on by Hector Martin and Alyssa Rosenzweig. https://asahilinux.org/
> > > > >
> > > > > The page explains everything except the most important question: why bother?
> > > > > I ask this seriously: what does achieving raw metal linux achieve over VM linux?
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, sure, it's a fun hobby, whatever, we all have our hobbies.
> > > > > But should anyone with a different hobby care?
>
> I wanted to get a TECHNICAL explanation of what might be possible and interesting
> on bare metal that's not possible on VM.

And I gave you a list of reasons, which very plausibly cover Linus's disinclination to use it.

You then changed the goal posts after I replied and suddenly were no longer interested in TECHNICAL explanations, but rather BUSINESS vs HOBBY or some utterly disingenuous drivel in a pathetic attempt to avoid my TECHNICAL reasons.

> I have not received what I consider to
> be an interesting response.

No, because your brain shuts down and you automatically reject any response that might give a reason why someone may not want to use OSX, which makes all responses non-interesting to you by definition.

> A little faster is true, but uninteresting.

Haha you missed all my other points after you now finally concede that my first point was true even after trying a stupid non-sequitur in an attempt to "rebut" it initially.

> Like I said, hobbies are fine; I have my own. But I was interested in whether there was
> anything SIGNIFICANT to the call for Linux on bare metal, anything of interest to general
> technologists rather than hobbyists, and the conclusion I have to come to is: no.

But it doesn't matter how much or how little input you get in order to come to that conclusion. Might as well save everybody's time.

>
> This has nothing to do with what machine Linus does or doesn't want to use as a personal
> device. I care as little about that as I imagine he cares what machine I use.

It very much does actually.
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