Question to Torvalds

By: Maynard Handley (, January 12, 2021 8:42 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Jukka Larja ( on January 12, 2021 5:05 am wrote:
> Maynard Handley ( on January 11, 2021 9:33 am wrote:
> > Jukka Larja ( on January 11, 2021 5:21 am wrote:
> > > Maynard Handley ( on January 9, 2021 3:12 pm wrote:
> > >
> > > > I ask this seriously: what does achieving raw metal linux achieve over VM linux?
> > >
> > > Let's turn this around: why would someone want to run anything
> > > in a VM, if there's no downside to run on bare metal?
> >
> > This is like asking "why write code for iOS (or Windows, or Linux", I'll write to the bare metal.
> Not really. There's rather large quantitative difference. Vast majority of user facing PC OSes are not run
> in a VM, or are run in a VM only from technical perspective, not in any user-visible way. Compare that with
> writing code to bare metal, which practicly no-one does (even if assembler counts are bare metal).
> > What you get by running your 3rd part OS in a VM is a resource sharing protocol (with other OS's), the
> > Apple security guarantees, and a ton of pre-existing code in the form of drivers and suchlike.
> You presume that the person likes MacOS or has some reason (like a particular app) to run
> it. If you want to make such presumption, it's fine by me, but you have to spell it out.
> My default presumption is that people usually get by with just one OS per computer.
> > Apple appears, pretty clearly, to believe that going forward providing VM
> > support for alternative OS's is a good enough solution for most needs.
> I agree with them, but don't really see how it's relevant to
> what you asked. You didn't specify any particular needs.
> > So far all I've learned is that they're massively wrong on theological grounds (for some
> > particular theologies) but not on anything that I would call a technical ground.
> I don't particularly like MacOS, but I don't particularly like Linux desktop managers either.
> Main reason for that is that I don't want to waste my time learning to fluently use several OSes,
> if I can get by with one. Both MacOS and all flavors of Linux have limitations that make them
> less than optimal for my personal use and pretty much impossible for professional use.
> So now that I've explained that one OS is enough, do you
> still think I should run it in VM under some other OS?

At no stage was the question what anyone SHOULD do.

The question was "what is being given up by the inability to run Linux on bare metal".
The answer appears to be some amount of (unquantified) performance and the ability to debug the Linux OS code. Neither of which strike me as important enough to Apple that they will reconsider their position. And neither of which change the case that for the AVERAGE user, they have the same degree of ability to run Linux on their M1 mac as on their earlier mac.
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TopicPosted ByDate
Question to TorvaldsPaul2020/11/14 03:08 AM
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      Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/09 03:12 PM
        He asked disingenuously (NT)JS2021/01/09 07:33 PM
          He asked disingenuouslyMaynard Handley2021/01/10 09:51 AM
            He asked disingenuouslyJS2021/01/10 02:50 PM
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              Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/12 04:50 AM
        Question to Torvaldsanon22021/01/10 06:21 PM
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            Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/10 07:22 PM
            Question to Torvaldsanon22021/01/10 07:47 PM
              Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/10 08:28 PM
                Question to Torvaldsanon22021/01/10 09:36 PM
        Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/11 05:21 AM
          Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/11 09:33 AM
            Question to Torvaldsanon22021/01/11 09:40 PM
            Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/12 05:05 AM
              Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/12 08:42 AM
                Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/12 10:15 AM
                  Question to TorvaldsMaynard Handley2021/01/12 11:07 AM
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                        Question to Torvaldsdmcq2021/01/15 01:58 PM
                          Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/15 08:04 PM
                            Question to Torvaldsdmcq2021/01/16 01:50 AM
                              Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/16 08:37 PM
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                                  Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/17 08:35 AM
                                    Question to Torvaldsdmcq2021/01/17 09:01 AM
                                      Question to TorvaldsJukka Larja2021/01/17 09:52 AM
            Question to TorvaldsDoug S2021/01/14 09:37 AM
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