re: "scaling"

By: Dummond D. Slow (mental.delete@this.protozoa.us), November 16, 2020 5:51 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on November 16, 2020 4:29 pm wrote:
> Dummond D. Slow (mental.delete@this.protozoa.us) on November 16, 2020 4:06 pm wrote:
> > Will (anon.delete@this.anon.anon) on November 16, 2020 3:30 pm wrote:
> > > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on November 16, 2020 2:58 pm wrote:
> > > > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on November 16, 2020 1:45 pm wrote:
> > > > > RType (Bigly.delete.delete@this.this.orangeface.com) on November 16, 2020 1:06 pm wrote:
> > > > > > Maynard Handley (name99.delete@this.name99.org) on November 16, 2020 12:46 pm wrote:
> > > > > > > Against GeForce GTX 1050 Ti and Radeon RX 560.
> > > > > > > Not exactly state of the art, but not exactly ridiculous.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As far as I can tell, these cards are around let's say 75W.
> > > > > > > The state of the art is now about twice their performance at about 85W.
> > > > > > > So bottom line is Apple's iGPU at, what, 10W? is half the current state of the
> > > > > > > art for "mid-range, not insane power". Would that be a reasonable summary?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My guess is that next year (beginning of Q2?) we get an
> > > > > > > 8-large core M1X, for the iMac and MBP/mini pro, with
> > > > > > > double the GPU resources, and so a credible match for the (reasonable power level) state of the art at ~20W.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/16/m1-beats-geforce-gtx-1050-ti-and-radeon-rx-560/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Polaris (rx 560) is very old now though.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Old. Not very old!
> > > > > Like I said, you can at least eyeball the newer cards here:
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_RX_5000_series#Desktop
> > > > > I looked at the 85W desktop model as a reasonable successor.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can see the Apple capabilities here:
> > > > > https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16233/2020-11-10%2019_12_29.jpg
> > > > >
> > > > > Single TFlops and pixel rate are comparable, texture slightly behind. But, just like CPU,
> > > > > these numbers conceal as much as they tell us because so much depends on the HW algorithms
> > > > > that utilize them. ATI and nV have the advantage of longer experience in those algorithms,
> > > > > Apple has the advantage of starting from a cleaner slate and (apparently) very little NIH
> > > > > and a willingness to change large parts of the design substantially every year.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess over the next week many more comparisons of this sort across a range of functionality will appear.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://twitter.com/mnloona48_/status/1328427807987302400
> > > > 1500 ST
> > > > 7500 MT
> > > > MBP (so active cooling)
> > > >
> > > > comparison page:
> > > > https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu_benchmark-cinebench_r23_single_core-15
> > > > (I'm not sure how to interpret that. Does HT on each device mean HT
> > > > was used? As far as I can tell it does, giving about a 25% boost.
> > > > In which case only fair would be to allow each large Apple core to get a small core to help it :-) )
> > > >
> > > > More seriously the MT page is here
> > > > https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu_benchmark-cinebench_r23_multi_core-16
> > > > and M1 slots in with the 6 core HT devices. Which is nice enough,
> > > > but more remarkable is just how well M1 seems to scale.
> > > > MT is giving us essentially 5x ST, so each small core is giving us the full one quarter.
> > > > The x86 devices don't seem to scale as well, getting about 5x worth of performance for their 6 (core+SMT)'s.
> > > >
> > > > As always, one result, preliminary, blah blah. We'll probably (slightly) better results
> > > > and (somewhat) worse results, especially on passive cooled MBA over the next few days.
> > > > Also still waiting on a VirtualApple result.
> > >
> > > Computerbase.de has a good list as well.
> > >
> > > https://www.computerbase.de/2020-11/cinebench-r23-community-benchmarks/
> > >
> > > One notable result is the 6/6 4600u which gets 5.7x MT speedup. There are slower
> > > results for the 4600u but this one is the only one with a screenshot.
> >
> > That is not scaling at all, that is artifact of how x86 processors run at much
> > higher clock in single-thread boost mode compared to all-core (all-thread rather)
> > load. The difference is going to be massive for an U-line processor.
> >
> > If you want to evaluate "scaling", you gotta lock the frequency to a constant value.
>
> Well it depends what you're looking for as to what "scaling" means.
> If you know a priori that the problem is trivially parallelizable, the only
> interesting scaling number is what happens when a constraint kicks in - either
> thermal or (in a particularly badly unbalanced system) memory bandwidth.
>
> Thermal scaling is especially interesting precisely because the second pillar of the "ARM
> will conquer the world over the next few years" is precisely that it gives you this much better
> "practical" scaling in most of the cases that matter, most obviously data warehouses.

This "thermal scaling" is just really "performance per watt while running at all-core boost clocks in the envelope of the sustained power limit".

And there is no point in even discussing that until we know what is M1's TDP. Or what is its power consumption for single-core task, for that matter. The TDP is the single most important factor in this: see 15W mobile Ryzen with Zen 2 core versus 45W mobile Ryzen also with Zen 2 cores running the multithread Cinebench test. ST should be quite close (4.2 versus 4.4 GHz boost), but MT score will vary.

Or has Apple released the numbers for that?
< Previous Post in ThreadNext Post in Thread >
TopicPosted ByDate
1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksMaynard Handley2020/11/16 01:46 PM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksAdrian2020/11/16 02:02 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksI_vs2020/11/17 02:18 AM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksRType2020/11/16 02:06 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksMaynard Handley2020/11/16 02:45 PM
      And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 03:58 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresWill2020/11/16 04:30 PM
          re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 05:06 PM
            re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 05:29 PM
              re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 05:51 PM
                re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 06:51 PM
                  re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 07:22 PM
                    re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 07:23 PM
                      re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 07:27 PM
                        re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 07:37 PM
                          re: "scaling"Chester2020/11/16 09:25 PM
                          Actual power consumption values.Dummond D. Slow2020/11/17 08:05 AM
                    re: "scaling"Doug S2020/11/17 11:25 AM
                      Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/17 12:18 PM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDoug S2020/11/17 01:21 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTblaine2020/11/19 06:18 PM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 06:31 PM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTTJ2020/11/18 02:10 AM
                          Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 06:21 AM
                            SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 08:02 AM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:17 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 09:18 AM
                                  x264 without SIMD is nonsenseDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:31 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 10:13 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 10:21 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsWilco2020/11/18 10:42 AM
                                        role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 12:06 PM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersdifferent anon2020/11/18 02:27 PM
                                            role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:47 PM
                                              role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2021/05/18 01:29 PM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersRichardC2020/11/18 04:42 PM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersnone2020/11/19 08:17 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 11:14 AM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 12:17 PM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 12:03 PM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 12:25 PM
                                          SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 01:03 PM
                                            SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:57 PM
                                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 05:36 PM
                                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 05:50 PM
                                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/19 10:13 AM
                                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloads-.-2020/11/19 03:34 PM
                                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 03:35 PM
                                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsEtienne Lorrain2020/11/19 05:04 AM
                                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 06:58 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 03:06 PM
                                  about bitratesDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:04 PM
                                    about bitratesChester2020/11/19 03:45 PM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsOok2020/11/18 04:05 PM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:21 PM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsNoSpammer2020/11/19 07:48 AM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 08:44 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:48 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 09:15 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:41 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 10:04 AM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 10:32 AM
                                          SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 11:26 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 10:22 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 11:28 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 09:34 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 10:00 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 03:18 PM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsJukka Larja2020/11/20 09:03 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 03:13 PM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 09:07 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMichael S2020/11/18 02:33 PM
                                  Interesting, thanks! (NT)none2020/11/19 08:03 AM
                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsrwessel2020/11/18 08:03 AM
                              Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/18 08:44 AM
                                Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:52 AM
                                  Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/18 03:59 PM
                                    Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:12 PM
                                      Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/19 10:19 AM
                                        Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 04:03 PM
                                          Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsUngo2020/11/19 09:12 PM
                                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/20 09:45 AM
                                It's not really SMT or adding small coresDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:58 AM
                                  It's not really SMT or adding small coresDoug S2020/11/18 04:02 PM
                                    It's not really SMT or adding small coresDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:27 PM
                                Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsxyz2020/11/18 01:14 PM
                                  Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 01:54 PM
                                    Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsGabriele Svelto2020/11/18 02:41 PM
                                      Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 02:52 PM
                                        Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsGabriele Svelto2020/11/18 03:05 PM
                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsTJ2020/11/18 12:46 PM
                            SMT shines in IO heavy & commercial DB workloadsxyz2020/11/18 01:05 PM
                            "Average workloads" don't exist (NT)Foo_2020/11/19 03:55 AM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:02 AM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 09:37 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:55 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDavid Hess2020/11/18 01:12 PM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 02:12 PM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJörn Engel2020/11/18 05:04 PM
                                    Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/18 05:37 PM
                                      Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJörn Engel2020/11/19 04:28 AM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDavid Hess'2020/11/19 07:25 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/18 08:23 AM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTgallier22020/11/19 12:21 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJames2020/11/19 02:22 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTWilco2020/11/19 05:06 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/19 02:34 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTgallier22020/11/19 09:04 AM
                                  big.LITTLE with different ISAsJames2020/11/19 09:41 AM
                                    big.LITTLE with different ISAsgallier22020/11/20 03:36 AM
                                    big.LITTLE with different ISAsanon2020/11/20 01:31 PM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 02:56 AM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJon Masters2020/11/18 12:46 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/18 03:41 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:17 PM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 05:46 PM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJon Masters2020/11/19 12:31 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 07:01 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 02:50 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 03:10 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/19 10:13 AM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 04:10 PM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTjuanrga2020/11/19 02:49 AM
                    re: "scaling"sr2020/11/17 12:39 PM
                      re: "scaling"Adrian2020/11/17 01:41 PM
                        re: "scaling"Adrian2020/11/17 01:52 PM
                          re: "scaling"Chester2020/11/17 06:29 PM
                  re: "scaling"anonymou52020/11/16 08:18 PM
                    re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 08:44 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 05:12 PM
          And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 05:31 PM
            And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 05:46 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 07:04 PM
          And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 07:28 PM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksRayla2020/11/16 04:16 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksChester2020/11/16 09:17 PM
  Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchanon52020/11/20 11:51 AM
    Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchPer Hesselgren2020/11/24 10:04 AM
      Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchPaul2020/11/25 03:08 AM
        Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchPaul2020/11/25 03:12 AM
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