SMT shines in IO heavy & commercial DB workloads

By: xyz (xyz.delete@this.xyz.xyz), November 18, 2020 12:05 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Andrei F (andrei.delete@this.anandtech.com) on November 18, 2020 5:21 am wrote:
> TJ (notanemail.delete@this.bla.com) on November 18, 2020 1:10 am wrote:
> > Dummond D. Slow (mental.delete@this.protozoa.us) on November 17, 2020 11:18 am wrote:
> > > Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on November 17, 2020 10:25 am wrote:
> > > > Dummond D. Slow (mental.delete@this.protozoa.us) on November 16, 2020 6:22 pm wrote:
> > > > > If the AMD beats M1 at the same or even better power = bad result for Apple.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not really, given that the M1 is their low end solution.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Renoir isn't AMD's highend either. They have been selling 16-64 units of the same uarch for a year.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Over
> > > > the next two years we'll see their midrange and high end stuff.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sure, but see above.
> > >
> > > The point was, we have to look at the multithread perf/watt. If Apple loses it's edge it
> > > has in single-thread in multi-thread, that means something for competitiveness in an higher-corecount
> > > chip. It would actually pour cold water on the x86 is doomed narratives.
> > >
> > >
> > > Side note: if AMD beats M1 say in 15W envelope or if M1 only
> > > wins narrowly, despite having much bigger efficiency
> > > in single thread (it is close to performance of Zen 3, but at 2-3× less power), what is the reason?
> > > It's simple: SMT. Had Apple implemented it, it would run away in Cinebench.
> > > Lesson to the people saying it's a pointless/stupid/doomed feature.
> > > Seems Renoir is able to bridge its "worse single-thread" and "worse
> > > manufacturing node" disadvantage pretty much thanks to SMT.
> > >
> > > Which also tells you where the biggest threat from Apple is. It pretty much caught
> > > up with state of the art x86's single core performance AND has process advantage.
> > > It could shoot ahead in performance in two areas if it chose to:
> > > 1) SMT as discussed. Not having SMT leaves massive multithread performance
> > > gains (end energy efficiency gains, more importantly) on the table.
> > > 2) AMD and to a bit less degree Intel squeeze the single core
> > > frequency of the core during single-thread boosting,
> > > with very high voltage and advanced power management so that
> > > they can pretty much run it as fast as the silicon
> > > allows and as high or even higher than manual overclocking can reach. This is why the power consumption in
> > > their single core turbo boosts is so high (it does dial way lower during all-core load clocks).
> > > Apple seems to only have simple turbo that drops clocks a bit
> > > on multicore load, but it is only a small difference.
> > > That implies Apple could extract a lot of frequency if it
> > > went as advanced on power management and aggressive
> > > on turbo as AMD does. I don't know how high it could go - the low power it exhibits suggest there is a lot
> > > of headroom, but perhaps the wide engine just couldin't handle much more due to timing even if it doesn't
> > > have high power output. But some potential Apple has not tapped yet is likely there.
> > >
> > > As I said here, weaknesses are where a huge comeback can origin at, so Intel and
> > > AMD gotta hurry with architecture improvements and make sure Apple doesn't fly past
> > > them if it adopts these features. Not that I think they are standing still.
> >
> > At least older intel architectures used to gain 10-30% with SMT depending
> > on load. But can a very high IPC design like A14/M1 really reach 30%?
> > I think there is much less time available where SMT can be active in A14/M1. I think the efficiency
> > cores gives a better multi-thread boost than SMT with not too much worse power efficiency.
> > The efficiency cores requires a bit more transistors though compared to adding SMT in the
> > big cores, but efficiency cores are still needed for power efficiency during low loads.
> >
> > My guess is that Apple never adds SMT due to complexity, security and diminishing return reasons.
> >
>
> 30% figure is an outlier figure for a few workloads. Across the board it's not even close to that. Can we stop
> declaring SMT an absolute must just because Cinebench has long dependency chains and scales well off of it?
>
> https://i.imgur.com/nSi11Gl.png
>
> Saying stuff like "It's simple: SMT. Had Apple implemented it, it would run away in
> Cinebench." is just idiotic in the face of the argument you want to make about SMT
> MT scaling and Apple's reasons and internal decisions about not implementing it.

High IPC SPEC CPU is a poor test for SMT. You will see 30%+ SMT gains on Intel CPUs with f.e. IO heavy and commercial DB workloads that have many low IPC threads with high cache miss rates and IO.
< Previous Post in ThreadNext Post in Thread >
TopicPosted ByDate
1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksMaynard Handley2020/11/16 12:46 PM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksAdrian2020/11/16 01:02 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksI_vs2020/11/17 01:18 AM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksRType2020/11/16 01:06 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksMaynard Handley2020/11/16 01:45 PM
      And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 02:58 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresWill2020/11/16 03:30 PM
          re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 04:06 PM
            re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 04:29 PM
              re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 04:51 PM
                re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 05:51 PM
                  re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 06:22 PM
                    re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 06:23 PM
                      re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 06:27 PM
                        re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 06:37 PM
                          re: "scaling"Chester2020/11/16 08:25 PM
                          Actual power consumption values.Dummond D. Slow2020/11/17 07:05 AM
                    re: "scaling"Doug S2020/11/17 10:25 AM
                      Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/17 11:18 AM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDoug S2020/11/17 12:21 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTblaine2020/11/19 05:18 PM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 05:31 PM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTTJ2020/11/18 01:10 AM
                          Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 05:21 AM
                            SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 07:02 AM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 07:17 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 08:18 AM
                                  x264 without SIMD is nonsenseDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:31 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 09:13 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:21 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsWilco2020/11/18 09:42 AM
                                        role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 11:06 AM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersdifferent anon2020/11/18 01:27 PM
                                            role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 02:47 PM
                                              role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2021/05/18 12:29 PM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersRichardC2020/11/18 03:42 PM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersnone2020/11/19 07:17 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 10:14 AM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 11:17 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 11:03 AM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 11:25 AM
                                          SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 12:03 PM
                                            SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 02:57 PM
                                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 04:36 PM
                                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:50 PM
                                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/19 09:13 AM
                                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloads-.-2020/11/19 02:34 PM
                                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 02:35 PM
                                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsEtienne Lorrain2020/11/19 04:04 AM
                                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 05:58 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 02:06 PM
                                  about bitratesDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:04 PM
                                    about bitratesChester2020/11/19 02:45 PM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsOok2020/11/18 03:05 PM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:21 PM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsNoSpammer2020/11/19 06:48 AM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 07:44 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 07:48 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 08:15 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:41 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 09:04 AM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:32 AM
                                          SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 10:26 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 09:22 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 10:28 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 08:34 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:00 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 02:18 PM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsJukka Larja2020/11/20 08:03 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 02:13 PM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 08:07 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMichael S2020/11/18 01:33 PM
                                  Interesting, thanks! (NT)none2020/11/19 07:03 AM
                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsrwessel2020/11/18 07:03 AM
                              Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/18 07:44 AM
                                Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 07:52 AM
                                  Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/18 02:59 PM
                                    Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:12 PM
                                      Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/19 09:19 AM
                                        Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 03:03 PM
                                          Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsUngo2020/11/19 08:12 PM
                                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/20 08:45 AM
                                It's not really SMT or adding small coresDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 07:58 AM
                                  It's not really SMT or adding small coresDoug S2020/11/18 03:02 PM
                                    It's not really SMT or adding small coresDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:27 PM
                                Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsxyz2020/11/18 12:14 PM
                                  Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 12:54 PM
                                    Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsGabriele Svelto2020/11/18 01:41 PM
                                      Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 01:52 PM
                                        Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsGabriele Svelto2020/11/18 02:05 PM
                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsTJ2020/11/18 11:46 AM
                            SMT shines in IO heavy & commercial DB workloadsxyz2020/11/18 12:05 PM
                            "Average workloads" don't exist (NT)Foo_2020/11/19 02:55 AM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 07:02 AM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 08:37 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:55 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDavid Hess2020/11/18 12:12 PM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 01:12 PM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJörn Engel2020/11/18 04:04 PM
                                    Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/18 04:37 PM
                                      Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJörn Engel2020/11/19 03:28 AM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDavid Hess'2020/11/19 06:25 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/18 07:23 AM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTgallier22020/11/18 11:21 PM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJames2020/11/19 01:22 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTWilco2020/11/19 04:06 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/19 01:34 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTgallier22020/11/19 08:04 AM
                                  big.LITTLE with different ISAsJames2020/11/19 08:41 AM
                                    big.LITTLE with different ISAsgallier22020/11/20 02:36 AM
                                    big.LITTLE with different ISAsanon2020/11/20 12:31 PM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 01:56 AM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJon Masters2020/11/18 11:46 AM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/18 02:41 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:17 PM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 04:46 PM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJon Masters2020/11/18 11:31 PM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 06:01 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 01:50 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 02:10 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/19 09:13 AM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 03:10 PM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTjuanrga2020/11/19 01:49 AM
                    re: "scaling"sr2020/11/17 11:39 AM
                      re: "scaling"Adrian2020/11/17 12:41 PM
                        re: "scaling"Adrian2020/11/17 12:52 PM
                          re: "scaling"Chester2020/11/17 05:29 PM
                  re: "scaling"anonymou52020/11/16 07:18 PM
                    re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 07:44 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 04:12 PM
          And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 04:31 PM
            And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 04:46 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 06:04 PM
          And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 06:28 PM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksRayla2020/11/16 03:16 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksChester2020/11/16 08:17 PM
  Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchanon52020/11/20 10:51 AM
    Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchPer Hesselgren2020/11/24 09:04 AM
      Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchPaul2020/11/25 02:08 AM
        Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchPaul2020/11/25 02:12 AM
Reply to this Topic
Name:
Email:
Topic:
Body: No Text
How do you spell tangerine? 🍊