Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloads

By: Dummond D. Slow (mental.delete@this.protozoa.us), November 19, 2020 4:03 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on November 19, 2020 9:19 am wrote:
> Dummond D. Slow (mental.delete@this.protozoa.us) on November 18, 2020 3:12 pm wrote:
> > Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on November 18, 2020 2:59 pm wrote:
> > > Dummond D. Slow (mental.delete@this.protozoa.us) on November 18, 2020 7:52 am wrote:
> > > > Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on November 18, 2020 7:44 am wrote:
> > > > > rwessel (rwessel.delete@this.yahoo.com) on November 18, 2020 7:03 am wrote:
> > > > > > Ignoring whether or not it makes sense for Apple to implement
> > > > > > SMT, there appear to be a reasonable number of
> > > > > > workloads that do work well with SMT. Commercial workloads,
> > > > > > things like database engines, which net out to quite
> > > > > > low effective IPCs compared to much of what's in SPEC. Hence IBM's fascination with SMT on POWER and Z.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Which are exactly the loads Apple doesn't care about since
> > > > > unlike Intel and AMD they don't sell commercial servers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which brings you back to the question that matters for Apple: How well SMT would do with
> > > > > workloads that their customers will run, especially the sort of stuff they do with phones
> > > > > and tablets (since that's what funds their leading edge core designs, not Macs)
> > > > >
> > > > > While it might not be too hard to make an argument that SMT would benefit the Mac Pro, that's well
> > > > > under 1% of Apple's unit sales of phones/tablets/Macs. Given that the area penalty for adding SMT
> > > > > to the big cores is minimal I suppose that doesn't matter - just leave it disabled on the mobile
> > > > > stuff. But you're still incurring the design/verification cost (and potential additional support
> > > > > and reputational cost for security holes that SMT opens) for that relatively small market.
> > > > >
> > > > > Moreover, do you get more "extra bang for the buck" spending power running a second thread
> > > > > on the big cores via SMT, or bringing the little cores into the mix when you want to add
> > > > > threads? Given what Andrei's figures show for the power draw of the M1's little cores,
> > > > > I'm not convinced SMT is a net power wise. If it doesn't make sense power win.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm pretty sure the power spend on SMT is going to be lower than the performance boost. No data
> > > > at hand though. You could take an AMD CPU and disable SMT and compare the performance in heavily
> > > > MT tasks. Their chips pretty much always try to hit their PTT because of the open-loop opportunistic
> > > > clock control so the power consumption tends to always be the same under load.
> > > > If you performance will be better with SMT, it proves that SMT gives better power efficiency.
> > > > I expect it to end up like that unless you cherry pick some task that has negative scaling.
> > >
> > >
> > > You misunderstand my point. I know that SMT gains more speed than the extra power it requires.
> > > The question is does it gain more speed per additional watt used than Apple's small cores
> > > do. Given how little power they use, the situation for SMT is likely a wash at best.
> > >
> >
> > It's possible that the little companions give better boost per watt but I would not take this for
> > granted at all. My hunch would be the other side, though again, hard to say from the armchair.
> >
> > It would be useful to look at say the Ryzen CPU and check how much will the
> > clock drop if you keep the same power limit and the same load but enable SMT.
> > Which I sadly can't do since I use one of the cheapo SMT-less ones, alas.
>
>
> Sure, but I think you'd agree that even if SMT has an advantage over the little cores it
> is likely to small. If you accept that, then why should Apple devote engineering resources
> to adding SMT to their big cores, when they already have an improvement in the same ballpark
> from their little cores - which provide other benefits in terms of allowing the big cores
> to shut down entirely during idle periods something that SMT does not provide.
>

Again it is possible but not guaranteed or even obvious to be likely, IMHO. It kinda all depends on numbers we don't have so margin of error in our guesses is unusably big.

What I think is likely:
1) SMT support needs less area than a small core (unless it is something like small Cortex-M obviously).
2) I am less certain but still tilting that it also might cost less power. Amongst other things because their improve utilization of existing units instead of needin gnew units that would be poweres in parallel to new ones. Not a given, some small cores might be frugal enough (but then would they have enough performance)?
3) SMT definitely makes core harder to design and validate.
4) I think the side-channel risk a wrong thing to look at so I ignore that.

There are other things:
5) little cores add another client to your inter-core fabric which has its costs too.

So from that, my opinion is that Apple could benefit and the main detractor is A) the validation burden. B) Or, they just mostly care about the single thread and more MT performance just isn't compelling reason and not even 'more MT performance in the same power' is. I think you guys stated the second reason often and the first reason too plus it is obvious.

It's up to Apple to bow to these reasons, not like it will hurt their sales - they don't need a CPU best in everything. All I am saying is that if they suddenly decided to abandon B) and did start to care about MT performance (and power efficiency), they would benefit, so at that point only A) is in the way, and now the question is if it pays off to do the hard validation work. That's all.

Now, if you think some of those 1-5 premises don't hold, that could obviously change the resulting takeaway, but with how I expect the premises to be, I arrived my conclusion.


>
> And again, SMT has recently proven to be a minefield of security issues. We have no reason to believe
> that all potential attack vectors have been found. If something serious is found and a software mitigation
> is not possible, disabling SMT is the only option. That worry does not exist with the little cores.

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TopicPosted ByDate
1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksMaynard Handley2020/11/16 01:46 PM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksAdrian2020/11/16 02:02 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksI_vs2020/11/17 02:18 AM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksRType2020/11/16 02:06 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksMaynard Handley2020/11/16 02:45 PM
      And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 03:58 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresWill2020/11/16 04:30 PM
          re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 05:06 PM
            re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 05:29 PM
              re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 05:51 PM
                re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 06:51 PM
                  re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 07:22 PM
                    re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 07:23 PM
                      re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 07:27 PM
                        re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 07:37 PM
                          re: "scaling"Chester2020/11/16 09:25 PM
                          Actual power consumption values.Dummond D. Slow2020/11/17 08:05 AM
                    re: "scaling"Doug S2020/11/17 11:25 AM
                      Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/17 12:18 PM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDoug S2020/11/17 01:21 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTblaine2020/11/19 06:18 PM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 06:31 PM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTTJ2020/11/18 02:10 AM
                          Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 06:21 AM
                            SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 08:02 AM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:17 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 09:18 AM
                                  x264 without SIMD is nonsenseDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:31 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 10:13 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 10:21 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsWilco2020/11/18 10:42 AM
                                        role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 12:06 PM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersdifferent anon2020/11/18 02:27 PM
                                            role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:47 PM
                                              role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2021/05/18 01:29 PM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersRichardC2020/11/18 04:42 PM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersnone2020/11/19 08:17 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 11:14 AM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 12:17 PM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 12:03 PM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 12:25 PM
                                          SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 01:03 PM
                                            SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:57 PM
                                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 05:36 PM
                                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 05:50 PM
                                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/19 10:13 AM
                                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloads-.-2020/11/19 03:34 PM
                                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 03:35 PM
                                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsEtienne Lorrain2020/11/19 05:04 AM
                                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 06:58 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 03:06 PM
                                  about bitratesDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:04 PM
                                    about bitratesChester2020/11/19 03:45 PM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsOok2020/11/18 04:05 PM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:21 PM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsNoSpammer2020/11/19 07:48 AM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 08:44 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:48 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 09:15 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:41 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 10:04 AM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 10:32 AM
                                          SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 11:26 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 10:22 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 11:28 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 09:34 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 10:00 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 03:18 PM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsJukka Larja2020/11/20 09:03 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 03:13 PM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 09:07 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMichael S2020/11/18 02:33 PM
                                  Interesting, thanks! (NT)none2020/11/19 08:03 AM
                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsrwessel2020/11/18 08:03 AM
                              Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/18 08:44 AM
                                Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:52 AM
                                  Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/18 03:59 PM
                                    Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:12 PM
                                      Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/19 10:19 AM
                                        Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 04:03 PM
                                          Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsUngo2020/11/19 09:12 PM
                                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/20 09:45 AM
                                It's not really SMT or adding small coresDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:58 AM
                                  It's not really SMT or adding small coresDoug S2020/11/18 04:02 PM
                                    It's not really SMT or adding small coresDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:27 PM
                                Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsxyz2020/11/18 01:14 PM
                                  Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 01:54 PM
                                    Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsGabriele Svelto2020/11/18 02:41 PM
                                      Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 02:52 PM
                                        Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsGabriele Svelto2020/11/18 03:05 PM
                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsTJ2020/11/18 12:46 PM
                            SMT shines in IO heavy & commercial DB workloadsxyz2020/11/18 01:05 PM
                            "Average workloads" don't exist (NT)Foo_2020/11/19 03:55 AM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:02 AM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 09:37 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:55 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDavid Hess2020/11/18 01:12 PM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 02:12 PM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJörn Engel2020/11/18 05:04 PM
                                    Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/18 05:37 PM
                                      Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJörn Engel2020/11/19 04:28 AM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDavid Hess'2020/11/19 07:25 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/18 08:23 AM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTgallier22020/11/19 12:21 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJames2020/11/19 02:22 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTWilco2020/11/19 05:06 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/19 02:34 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTgallier22020/11/19 09:04 AM
                                  big.LITTLE with different ISAsJames2020/11/19 09:41 AM
                                    big.LITTLE with different ISAsgallier22020/11/20 03:36 AM
                                    big.LITTLE with different ISAsanon2020/11/20 01:31 PM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 02:56 AM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJon Masters2020/11/18 12:46 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/18 03:41 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:17 PM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 05:46 PM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJon Masters2020/11/19 12:31 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 07:01 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 02:50 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 03:10 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/19 10:13 AM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 04:10 PM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTjuanrga2020/11/19 02:49 AM
                    re: "scaling"sr2020/11/17 12:39 PM
                      re: "scaling"Adrian2020/11/17 01:41 PM
                        re: "scaling"Adrian2020/11/17 01:52 PM
                          re: "scaling"Chester2020/11/17 06:29 PM
                  re: "scaling"anonymou52020/11/16 08:18 PM
                    re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 08:44 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 05:12 PM
          And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 05:31 PM
            And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 05:46 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 07:04 PM
          And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 07:28 PM
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