Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMT

By: blaine (myname.delete@this.acm.org), November 19, 2020 5:18 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on November 17, 2020 12:21 pm wrote:
> Dummond D. Slow (mental.delete@this.protozoa.us) on November 17, 2020 11:18 am wrote:
> > Which also tells you where the biggest threat from Apple is. It pretty much caught
> > up with state of the art x86's single core performance AND has process advantage.
> > It could shoot ahead in performance in two areas if it chose to:
> > 1) SMT as discussed. Not having SMT leaves massive multithread performance
> > gains (end energy efficiency gains, more importantly) on the table.
>
>
> Does that really matter all that much for desktop use? Maybe it matters for
> the Mac Pro, but that's just not a big enough piece of the overall Mac market
> (let alone the overall 'Apple SoC' market) for them to add SMT, IMHO.
>
> Now if Apple was going build their own servers (for iCloud, Siri, maybe Search if antitrust issues
> force Google to quit paying Apple for being the default search in Safari) then adding SMT would
> make more sense since they can amortize the extra design/verification work across more units.
>
>
> > 2) AMD and to a bit less degree Intel squeeze the single core
> > frequency of the core during single-thread boosting,
> > with very high voltage and advanced power management so that
> > they can pretty much run it as fast as the silicon
> > allows and as high or even higher than manual overclocking can reach. This is why the power consumption in
> > their single core turbo boosts is so high (it does dial way lower during all-core load clocks).
> > Apple seems to only have simple turbo that drops clocks a bit
> > on multicore load, but it is only a small difference.
> > That implies Apple could extract a lot of frequency if it
> > went as advanced on power management and aggressive
> > on turbo as AMD does. I don't know how high it could go - the low power it exhibits suggest there is a lot
> > of headroom, but perhaps the wide engine just couldin't handle much more due to timing even if it doesn't
> > have high power output. But some potential Apple has not tapped yet is likely there.
>
>
> I agree that Apple clearly has some room to increase performance with binning/turbo, but again how much
> sense does that effort make for their market? It would be nice for those of us watching on the sidelines
> and wanting to see a real performance war, but in reality Apple is competing with the last version of
> their own products not with what you can buy from Dell, and the M1 is already faster for ST than any
> x86 Mac so they don't NEED to do this. Maybe they will explore it in the M2 or M3, I hope they do, but
> I wouldn't be surprised if they feel their design effort is better spent elsewhere.
>
> Heck, Apple could get faster by simply not designing for low power. According to TSMC using HPC cells
> gets you a 10% boost, and other tricks you can do when power draw is less important can get 10% more.
> An M1+ clocked at 3.8 GHz would be one hell of a beast, though if it used 2x more power per core it
> would really only be appropriate for a Mac Pro - every other Mac is quite cooling constrained due to
> the form factor. Sure, they COULD pay for a separate tapeout when the Mac Pro starts at $5K, but they'd
> only be able to fit half as many cores at the same power budget. So they probably will use low power
> transistors there despite the potential for faster ST performance, EVEN if they do a separate design
> for the Mac Pro (i.e. based on being able to leverage it for internal server use also)

Doug is right. The value of multi-threading is workload dependent.
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TopicPosted ByDate
1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksMaynard Handley2020/11/16 12:46 PM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksAdrian2020/11/16 01:02 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksI_vs2020/11/17 01:18 AM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksRType2020/11/16 01:06 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksMaynard Handley2020/11/16 01:45 PM
      And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 02:58 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresWill2020/11/16 03:30 PM
          re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 04:06 PM
            re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 04:29 PM
              re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 04:51 PM
                re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 05:51 PM
                  re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 06:22 PM
                    re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 06:23 PM
                      re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 06:27 PM
                        re: "scaling"Dummond D. Slow2020/11/16 06:37 PM
                          re: "scaling"Chester2020/11/16 08:25 PM
                          Actual power consumption values.Dummond D. Slow2020/11/17 07:05 AM
                    re: "scaling"Doug S2020/11/17 10:25 AM
                      Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/17 11:18 AM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDoug S2020/11/17 12:21 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTblaine2020/11/19 05:18 PM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 05:31 PM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTTJ2020/11/18 01:10 AM
                          Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 05:21 AM
                            SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 07:02 AM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 07:17 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 08:18 AM
                                  x264 without SIMD is nonsenseDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:31 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 09:13 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:21 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsWilco2020/11/18 09:42 AM
                                        role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 11:06 AM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersdifferent anon2020/11/18 01:27 PM
                                            role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 02:47 PM
                                              role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersDummond D. Slow2021/05/18 12:29 PM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersRichardC2020/11/18 03:42 PM
                                          role of hand-optimized assembly in multimedia encodersnone2020/11/19 07:17 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 10:14 AM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 11:17 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 11:03 AM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 11:25 AM
                                          SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 12:03 PM
                                            SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 02:57 PM
                                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 04:36 PM
                                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 04:50 PM
                                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/19 09:13 AM
                                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloads-.-2020/11/19 02:34 PM
                                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 02:35 PM
                                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsEtienne Lorrain2020/11/19 04:04 AM
                                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 05:58 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 02:06 PM
                                  about bitratesDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:04 PM
                                    about bitratesChester2020/11/19 02:45 PM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsOok2020/11/18 03:05 PM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:21 PM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsNoSpammer2020/11/19 06:48 AM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 07:44 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 07:48 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 08:15 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:41 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 09:04 AM
                                        SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:32 AM
                                          SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 10:26 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 09:22 AM
                                      SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAdrian2020/11/18 10:28 AM
                                  SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsAndrei F2020/11/18 08:34 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 09:00 AM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 02:18 PM
                                    SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsJukka Larja2020/11/20 08:03 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsChester2020/11/18 02:13 PM
                              SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsnone2020/11/18 08:07 AM
                                SPEC is NOT a representation of average workloadsMichael S2020/11/18 01:33 PM
                                  Interesting, thanks! (NT)none2020/11/19 07:03 AM
                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsrwessel2020/11/18 07:03 AM
                              Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/18 07:44 AM
                                Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 07:52 AM
                                  Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/18 02:59 PM
                                    Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:12 PM
                                      Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDoug S2020/11/19 09:19 AM
                                        Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 03:03 PM
                                          Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsUngo2020/11/19 08:12 PM
                                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsDummond D. Slow2020/11/20 08:45 AM
                                It's not really SMT or adding small coresDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 07:58 AM
                                  It's not really SMT or adding small coresDoug S2020/11/18 03:02 PM
                                    It's not really SMT or adding small coresDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:27 PM
                                Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsxyz2020/11/18 12:14 PM
                                  Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 12:54 PM
                                    Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsGabriele Svelto2020/11/18 01:41 PM
                                      Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsMaynard Handley2020/11/18 01:52 PM
                                        Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsGabriele Svelto2020/11/18 02:05 PM
                            Cinebench is NOT a representation of average workloadsTJ2020/11/18 11:46 AM
                            SMT shines in IO heavy & commercial DB workloadsxyz2020/11/18 12:05 PM
                            "Average workloads" don't exist (NT)Foo_2020/11/19 02:55 AM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 07:02 AM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 08:37 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 08:55 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDavid Hess2020/11/18 12:12 PM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 01:12 PM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJörn Engel2020/11/18 04:04 PM
                                    Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/18 04:37 PM
                                      Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJörn Engel2020/11/19 03:28 AM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDavid Hess'2020/11/19 06:25 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/18 07:23 AM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTgallier22020/11/18 11:21 PM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJames2020/11/19 01:22 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTWilco2020/11/19 04:06 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/19 01:34 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTgallier22020/11/19 08:04 AM
                                  big.LITTLE with different ISAsJames2020/11/19 08:41 AM
                                    big.LITTLE with different ISAsgallier22020/11/20 02:36 AM
                                    big.LITTLE with different ISAsanon2020/11/20 12:31 PM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 01:56 AM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJon Masters2020/11/18 11:46 AM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTanonymou52020/11/18 02:41 PM
                          Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/18 03:17 PM
                            Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/18 04:46 PM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTJon Masters2020/11/18 11:31 PM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 06:01 AM
                              Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 01:50 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTAdrian2020/11/19 02:10 AM
                                Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTMaynard Handley2020/11/19 09:13 AM
                                  Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTDummond D. Slow2020/11/19 03:10 PM
                        Apple loses a lot by not having turbo and SMTjuanrga2020/11/19 01:49 AM
                    re: "scaling"sr2020/11/17 11:39 AM
                      re: "scaling"Adrian2020/11/17 12:41 PM
                        re: "scaling"Adrian2020/11/17 12:52 PM
                          re: "scaling"Chester2020/11/17 05:29 PM
                  re: "scaling"anonymou52020/11/16 07:18 PM
                    re: "scaling"Maynard Handley2020/11/16 07:44 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 04:12 PM
          And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 04:31 PM
            And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 04:46 PM
        And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresMaynard Handley2020/11/16 06:04 PM
          And the NZ'ers are first to deliver cinebench scoresDummond D. Slow2020/11/16 06:28 PM
  1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksRayla2020/11/16 03:16 PM
    1st round of M1 GPU benchmarksChester2020/11/16 08:17 PM
  Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchanon52020/11/20 10:51 AM
    Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchPer Hesselgren2020/11/24 09:04 AM
      Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchPaul2020/11/25 02:08 AM
        Phoronix Mac mini M1 benchPaul2020/11/25 02:12 AM
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