Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.

By: Björn Ragnar Björnsson (bjorn.ragnar.delete@this.gmail.com), December 19, 2020 9:57 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Brett (ggtgp.delete@this.yahoo.com) on December 19, 2020 8:13 pm wrote:
> Björn Ragnar Björnsson (bjorn.ragnar.delete@this.gmail.com) on December 19, 2020 4:25 pm wrote:
> > Wes Felter (wmf.delete@this.felter.org) on December 18, 2020 9:38 pm wrote:
> > > Björn Ragnar Björnsson (bjorn.ragnar.delete@this.gmail.com) on December 16, 2020 10:09 pm wrote:
> > >
> > > > This in-line ECC appears to be a colossal kludge, presented as
> > > > a feature, to solve a problem that never should have existed.
> > >
> > > I don't think in-band ECC has much to do with Intel's price discrimination around ECC. On a DDR4
> > > memory channel you add a 9th DRAM chip for ECC. On an LPDDR4 channel based on x16 or x32 DRAMs...
> > > you can't just add another chip. I guess there's a parallel universe where LPDDR4 was defined
> > > as 36-bit or 40-bit wide but it's too late for that now. I also suspect that if Intel had never
> > > skimped on ECC some other company would have eventually started the race to the bottom.
> >
> > There's a legitimate need for ECC for systems that have no
> > way of providing support for it. I suspect that something
> > like socket compatibility is driving this in-band ECC push.
> > If you don't have the pins for ECC bits in a socket
> > you now need to support with ECC, I guess in-band ECC is reasonable far from optimal surgery.
> >
> > Race to the bottom by anybody other than Intel would have failed and the reason is simple:
> > Intel has for the ~ last three decades held nearly all of the CPU market power.
> >
> > My take, ECC support should never have been dropped the way it was and the way it was dropped constitutes
> > in my mind malicious price discrimination. I realize that price discrimination is probably inevitable
> > in many circumstance, I just wish Intel would have discriminated less destructively.
>
> What exactly is wrong with moving ECC on chip as is being done?
> On chip the ECC is faster and does not involve the CPU, so one bit flips by cosmic ray strikes are fixed.
> Most systems only have one or two RAM chips, now those systems can have ECC.
> Denser chips are more error prone, so eventually all RAM chips will have ECC.
> The cost to add one bit to a 128 bit access is cheap at under 1%, so high
> quality multi bit ECC is cheap and what is cheap becomes widespread.
>
> Manufacturing wise you test the chips and those with hard errors fixed by ECC you sell as
> non-ECC chips at full price, instead of at half price as you disabled half the array.
> Right now hard errors are handled by spares, but you don’t need spares with on chip ECC. So
> a chip with ECC is not bigger and more expensive, the spares are just getting used actively.
> This is why ECC is moving on chip, it’s the best place to do ECC.
>
> Thus I predict that the era of RAM bit flip errors will shortly be largely over.

What's wrong is that the on-chip ECC is not being used to improve memory quality/reliability but to enable lower voltages to be used without memory errors becoming excessive.
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TopicPosted ByDate
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    In-band ECC support in recent Atom SoCs & Tiger Lake UJS2020/12/16 09:07 PM
      In-band ECC support in recent Atom SoCs & Tiger Lake UGabriele Svelto2020/12/16 10:00 PM
        In-band ECC support in recent Atom SoCs & Tiger Lake UJS2020/12/17 12:39 AM
          In-band ECC support in recent Atom SoCs & Tiger Lake UEtienne Lorrain2020/12/17 02:15 AM
            In-band ECC support in recent Atom SoCs & Tiger Lake UJames2020/12/17 07:28 AM
              In-band ECC support in recent Atom SoCs & Tiger Lake UEtienne Lorrain2020/12/17 09:16 AM
                In-band ECC support in recent Atom SoCs & Tiger Lake Urwessel2020/12/17 09:51 AM
                  In-band ECC support in recent Atom SoCs & Tiger Lake UMichael S2020/12/17 12:22 PM
    Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Björn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/16 10:09 PM
      Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Maxwell2020/12/17 12:58 AM
        Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.pixiespeed2020/12/17 09:04 AM
      Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Adrian2020/12/17 07:40 AM
      Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Maynard Handley2020/12/17 09:09 AM
        Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Etienne Lorrain2020/12/17 09:26 AM
          Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Maynard Handley2020/12/17 09:42 AM
            Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.David Kanter2020/12/17 12:04 PM
              Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Doug S2020/12/17 01:03 PM
              Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.phonon2020/12/17 03:25 PM
                Internal array ECC vs. memory controllerDavid Kanter2020/12/19 10:39 AM
                  Internal array ECC vs. memory controllerJörn Engel2020/12/20 10:42 AM
                    Internal array ECC vs. memory controllerrwessel2020/12/20 10:52 AM
                    Internal array ECC vs. memory controllerDavid Kanter2020/12/20 03:44 PM
              Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Maynard Handley2020/12/17 04:55 PM
                Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.rwessel2020/12/17 07:34 PM
                  Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Maynard Handley2020/12/17 09:10 PM
                    Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Maynard Handley2020/12/17 09:43 PM
                      Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Maynard Handley2020/12/18 09:30 AM
                        Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.anon22020/12/19 01:00 AM
                          Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Maynard Handley2020/12/19 10:23 AM
                            Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.anon22020/12/19 03:01 PM
                              Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Maynard Handley2020/12/19 04:23 PM
                                Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.anon22020/12/19 04:30 PM
              Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Björn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/17 07:41 PM
                Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.David Hess2020/12/19 08:48 PM
              Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Memory Guy2020/12/17 09:19 PM
      Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.rwessel2020/12/17 10:01 AM
      Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Wes Felter2020/12/18 09:38 PM
        Thanks for the confirmation!David Kanter2020/12/19 11:51 AM
          Thanks for the confirmation!Konrad Schwarz2020/12/20 09:34 AM
            Thanks for the confirmation!Niels Jørgen Kruse2020/12/20 11:01 AM
              Thanks for the confirmation!David Kanter2020/12/20 03:45 PM
              Thanks for the confirmation!Gionatan Danti2020/12/21 12:50 AM
                Thanks for the confirmation!Niels Jørgen Kruse2020/12/21 09:07 AM
            Thanks for the confirmation!David Kanter2020/12/20 03:42 PM
              Thanks for the confirmation!Foo_2020/12/21 02:01 AM
                Thanks for the confirmation!David Kanter2020/12/21 08:39 AM
            Thanks for the confirmation!Paul2020/12/20 11:29 PM
              Thanks for the confirmation!Michael S2020/12/21 01:00 AM
                Thanks for the confirmation!anon20202020/12/21 01:44 AM
                Thanks for the confirmation!Paul2020/12/22 12:42 PM
                  Thanks for the confirmation!Michael S2020/12/22 02:28 PM
                    Thanks for the confirmation!Paul2020/12/22 06:12 PM
                      Thanks for the confirmation!Michael S2020/12/23 02:55 PM
                        Thanks for the confirmation!Paul2020/12/23 03:54 PM
                          Thanks for the confirmation!Dan Fay2020/12/23 04:38 PM
                            Thanks for the confirmation!Paul2020/12/26 04:10 AM
                              Thanks for the confirmation!Björn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/26 08:37 PM
                                Thanks for the confirmation!anon22020/12/27 02:00 AM
                                Thanks for the confirmation!Doug S2020/12/28 12:47 PM
            Thanks for the confirmation!David Hess2020/12/21 06:35 PM
              Thanks for the confirmation!Konrad Schwarz2020/12/22 12:08 AM
                Thanks for the confirmation!Doug S2020/12/22 10:42 AM
                  Thanks for the confirmation!David Hess2020/12/22 12:32 PM
                Thanks for the confirmation!David Hess2020/12/22 12:21 PM
        Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Björn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/19 04:25 PM
          Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Brett2020/12/19 08:13 PM
            Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.David Hess2020/12/19 09:17 PM
              Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Konrad Schwarz2020/12/21 03:29 AM
                Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.David Hess2020/12/21 06:49 PM
            Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Björn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/19 09:57 PM
              Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Björn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/19 10:14 PM
            Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Adrian2020/12/20 02:06 AM
              Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.rwessel2020/12/20 08:43 AM
             Multi-level DRAM?Brett2020/12/20 08:07 PM
               Multi-level DRAM?Heikki Kultala2020/12/21 11:58 AM
               Multi-level DRAM?David Hess2020/12/21 07:25 PM
                 Multi-level DRAM?Adrian2020/12/22 05:15 AM
                   Multi-level DRAM?Dan Fay2020/12/22 10:11 AM
                     Multi-level DRAM?Paul2020/12/22 06:01 PM
                       Multi-level DRAM?Dan Fay2020/12/23 12:29 PM
                         Multi-level DRAM?Paul2020/12/23 01:00 PM
                           Multi-level DRAM?Dan Fay2020/12/23 04:30 PM
                             Multi-level DRAM?David Hess2020/12/23 05:05 PM
                           Multi-level DRAM?Björn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/25 06:44 PM
                             Multi-level DRAM?Paul2020/12/26 04:04 AM
                               Multi-level DRAM?Michael S2020/12/26 08:11 AM
                                 DIMM binsPaul2020/12/26 08:55 AM
                                   DIMM binsBjörn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/26 08:09 PM
                                     DIMM binsBjörn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/26 08:19 PM
                                       DIMM binsDaniel Fay2020/12/27 07:51 PM
                                  Is binning at the module or die level? (NT)anonymous22020/12/27 02:36 PM
                                    Is binning at the module or die level?David Hess2020/12/28 01:31 PM
                               Multi-level DRAM?Doug S2020/12/28 12:55 PM
                               Multi-level DRAM?David Hess2020/12/28 01:36 PM
                             Multi-level DRAM?anon­­32020/12/26 10:22 PM
                               Multi-level DRAM?Björn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/27 07:12 PM
                               Multi-level DRAM?Paul2021/01/04 04:20 AM
               Multi-level DRAM?Carson2021/01/05 12:14 PM
                 Multi-level DRAM?Brett2021/01/05 02:05 PM
        Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Björn Ragnar Björnsson2020/12/19 04:35 PM
        Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.David Hess2020/12/19 08:59 PM
          Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.rwessel2020/12/20 08:56 AM
          Enough with the idiocy ... let's have proper ECC again.Doug S2020/12/20 10:16 AM
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