Ryzen 9 5000 series processor

By: Chester (lamchester.delete@this.gmail.com), January 7, 2021 5:19 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org) on January 7, 2021 10:04 am wrote:
> Chester (lamchester.delete@this.gmail.com) on January 7, 2021 5:00 am wrote:
> > > Linus
> >
> > Except if we're talking about malicious attacks, researchers figured out they could flip three bits
> > and cause an undetectable error.
>
> BS.
>
> They could do so only by causing a lot of single-bit flips
>
> Why is this so hard to understand? ECC would detect the attack.
> It really is that simple, and that's a fundamental fact.
>
> People who argue about undetectable 3-bit flips are incompetent and don't understand
> what they are talking about. They are either actively trying to be bad actors,
> or they have bought into the fairy tale from the bad actors.
>
> And yes, in some theoretical universe you could have a single 3-bit flip without getting any single-bit
> flips. Anything can happen in theory. But that's like worrying about a meteorite targeting you
> personally. It's simply not a realistic worry, and it's not an argument against ECC.
>
> Do you argue against airbags because they wouldn't save
> you from being killed in your car by a stray meteorite?
>
> Can you really not see how stupid your argument is?
>
> Linus

I'm not arguing against airbags because they won't stop a stray meteorite. I'm arguing against driving at 100 MPH because airbags will (maybe) save you. Notice people didn't create bit flips in L1D (also ECC protected), even though that's a lot easier to hammer than ECC DRAM. L1D is designed to handle very frequent accesses to the same rows. DRAM is not, because of caches.

So, we need the same standard from DRAM: it needs to handle frequent accesses without bit flips the way cache does, regardless of whether it has ECC.

About theory vs reality, this site claims they can pull off an attack in 32 minutes when bit flips are observable (because once a bit flips and ECC detects it, latency increases). Of course you have to draw the line somewhere and some attacks are so remote or take so long that you just don't bother. But I'm not sure I'd draw that line below 32 minutes.

And of course ECC would log bit flips and hint such an attack happened, but an attacker would have elevated privileges by the time you found out. That's why I think tightening refresh timings is a much better way of raising the bar.

As for the regular consumer case, I agree there should be a choice between ECC or not, and AMD's on the right path. But I suspect most consumers wouldn't bother paying even a little extra for ECC.
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TopicPosted ByDate
Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Phil9955112020/12/29 06:12 AM
  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2020/12/29 08:31 AM
    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Dummond D. Slow2020/12/29 11:33 AM
      Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Phil9955112020/12/29 05:09 PM
        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Dummond D. Slow2020/12/29 07:00 PM
          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor anon2020/12/30 03:50 AM
          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Foo_2020/12/30 03:50 AM
            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Phil9955112020/12/30 06:22 AM
              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Phil9955112020/12/30 06:25 AM
              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2020/12/30 07:00 AM
            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Linus Torvalds2020/12/30 01:00 PM
              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Phil9955112020/12/31 07:45 AM
                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2020/12/31 10:49 AM
                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Linus Torvalds2020/12/31 01:05 PM
                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor me2020/12/31 05:56 PM
                    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Anon2020/12/31 06:48 PM
                      Ryzen 9 5000 series processor me2021/01/01 05:06 AM
                    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Gabriele Svelto2021/01/01 08:10 AM
                      Ryzen 9 5000 series processor David Hess2021/01/01 08:37 AM
                        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/01 11:52 AM
                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Linus Torvalds2021/01/01 01:48 PM
                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/01 11:28 PM
                              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Linus Torvalds2021/01/02 01:21 PM
                                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2021/01/02 02:17 PM
                                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Anon2021/01/02 07:08 PM
                                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/03 12:10 AM
                                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor David Hess2021/01/03 02:03 AM
                                    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/03 04:28 AM
                                  Threadrippers do have official ECC supportJukka Larja2021/01/03 09:32 PM
                                    Threadrippers do have official ECC supportBjörn Ragnar Björnsson2021/01/04 09:21 AM
                                ECC (or lack of)Tim McCaffrey2021/01/03 10:28 AM
                                  ECC (or lack of)Adrian2021/01/03 02:14 PM
                                    ECC (or lack of)Yuhong Bao2021/01/03 02:51 PM
                                      ECC (or lack of)Yuhong Bao2021/01/04 07:54 PM
                                        ECC (or lack of)Yuhong Bao2021/01/04 08:04 PM
                                AMD ECC not enabled but says it isIan Cutress2021/01/03 12:09 PM
                                  AMD ECC not enabled but says it isMaxwell2021/01/03 01:28 PM
                                  AMD ECC not enabled but says it isAdrian2021/01/03 01:50 PM
                                    AMD ECC not enabled but says it isGabriele Svelto2021/01/03 02:08 PM
                                      AMD ECC not enabled but says it isAdrian2021/01/03 02:34 PM
                                        AMD ECC not enabled but says it isDan Strother2021/01/03 08:00 PM
                                          AMD ECC not enabled but says it isMatt2021/01/04 01:29 AM
                                          AMD ECC not enabled but says it isGabriele Svelto2021/01/04 02:29 AM
                                            AMD ECC not enabled but says it isMatt2021/01/04 01:39 PM
                                          AMD ECC not enabled but says it isAdrian2021/01/04 06:49 AM
                                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jason Snyder2021/01/04 02:44 PM
                                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Brett2021/01/04 06:08 PM
                                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Linus Torvalds2021/01/05 01:29 PM
                                    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2021/01/05 02:08 PM
                                    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Emil Briggs2021/01/05 05:40 PM
                                      Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Gabriele Svelto2021/01/06 02:12 AM
                                    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor [ECC summary - Suitable for framing]Björn Ragnar Björnsson2021/01/05 07:29 PM
                                    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor 2021/01/06 10:45 AM
                                      Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Linus Torvalds2021/01/06 12:38 PM
                                        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Emanuel Rylke2021/01/07 01:49 AM
                                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jörn Engel2021/01/07 10:05 AM
                                            Read Only Page CorrectionsTerry Gray2021/01/07 10:47 AM
                                              Read Only Page Correctionsrwessel2021/01/07 12:00 PM
                                                Read Only Page CorrectionsTerry Gray2021/01/07 12:58 PM
                                              Read Only Page CorrectionsDavid Hess2021/01/10 08:37 PM
                                              Read Only Page Correctionsdmcq2021/01/11 04:32 AM
                                        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Chester2021/01/07 06:00 AM
                                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Gabriele Svelto2021/01/07 06:33 AM
                                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Michael S2021/01/07 09:05 AM
                                              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Linus Torvalds2021/01/07 11:26 AM
                                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor rwessel2021/01/07 10:06 AM
                                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Linus Torvalds2021/01/07 11:04 AM
                                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Chester2021/01/07 05:19 PM
                                              OT L1 chache ECCMichael S2021/01/08 03:31 AM
                                                OT L1 chache ECCAdrian2021/01/08 09:54 AM
                                                  OT L1 chache ECCDavid Kanter2021/01/08 10:13 AM
                                                    Structure ProtectionsChester2021/01/08 03:14 PM
                                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Etienne Lorrain2021/01/08 02:18 AM
                                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Björn Ragnar Björnsson2021/01/07 06:42 PM
                                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Chester2021/01/07 09:14 PM
                                              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Björn Ragnar Björnsson2021/01/07 09:26 PM
                                                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Michael S2021/01/08 03:49 AM
                                    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jason Snyder2021/01/14 08:32 AM
                                      Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Gabriele Svelto2021/01/15 06:26 AM
                                        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jason Snyder2021/01/16 11:45 AM
                                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jason Snyder2021/01/16 01:27 PM
                              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Etienne Lorrain2021/01/07 02:21 AM
                                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor anon2021/01/07 03:21 AM
                                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Etienne Lorrain2021/01/07 04:22 AM
                                    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Konrad Schwarz2021/01/07 06:27 AM
                                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2021/01/07 05:22 AM
                                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor rwessel2021/01/07 10:25 AM
                                    Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jörn Engel2021/01/07 05:29 PM
                                      Ryzen 9 5000 series processor rwessel2021/01/07 07:47 PM
                                        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor David Hess2021/01/11 05:26 AM
                                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2021/01/11 06:25 AM
                                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor rwessel2021/01/11 08:24 AM
                                      Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Mark Roulo2021/01/07 08:00 PM
                                        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Björn Ragnar Björnsson2021/01/07 08:20 PM
                                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor David Hess2021/01/11 05:16 AM
                      Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/01 11:43 AM
                        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor David Hess2021/01/01 01:31 PM
                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Dan Strother2021/01/01 02:12 PM
                        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2021/01/01 02:28 PM
                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor vs. M1Adrian2021/01/02 03:45 AM
                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor vs. M1Dummond D. Slow2021/01/02 01:50 PM
                              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor vs. M1Adrian2021/01/02 03:00 PM
                                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor vs. M1Dummond D. Slow2021/01/04 01:11 PM
                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor vs. M1Dummond D. Slow2021/01/07 11:43 AM
                              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor vs. M1Adrian2021/01/08 09:28 AM
                                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor vs. M1 Sorry, typo, correction hereAdrian2021/01/08 09:31 AM
                                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor vs. M1 (vs. Rocket Lake)Dummond D. Slow2021/01/22 08:02 AM
                            isn't that an interesting contradiction?hobold2021/01/08 01:44 PM
                              isn't that an interesting contradiction?Maynard Handley2021/01/08 02:27 PM
                              isn't that an interesting contradiction?Adrian2021/01/08 03:21 PM
                                isn't that an interesting contradiction?Maynard Handley2021/01/08 04:59 PM
                                  isn't that an interesting contradiction?Maynard Handley2021/01/08 05:34 PM
                                    isn't that an interesting contradiction?Maynard Handley2021/01/08 05:34 PM
                                    isn't that an interesting contradiction?Maynard Handley2021/01/08 05:35 PM
                                      isn't that an interesting contradiction?Adrian2021/01/09 01:55 AM
                                  isn't that an interesting contradiction?Adrian2021/01/09 01:48 AM
                                    isn't that an interesting contradiction? - gmpAdrian2021/01/09 09:00 AM
                                      isn't that an interesting contradiction? - gmpnone2021/01/11 02:26 AM
                                        isn't that an interesting contradiction? - gmpAdrian2021/01/11 05:34 AM
                                          Fully agree with you, I was just giving some data :-) (NT)none2021/01/11 06:17 AM
                                          isn't that an interesting contradiction? - gmpanon2021/01/11 01:09 PM
                                            isn't that an interesting contradiction? - gmpAdrian2021/01/12 01:54 AM
                                              isn't that an interesting contradiction? - gmpnone2021/01/12 02:15 AM
                                                isn't that an interesting contradiction? - gmpAdrian2021/01/12 04:37 AM
                                                  isn't that an interesting contradiction? - gmpnone2021/01/12 04:53 AM
                                                    uses of int multiplyhobold2021/01/12 03:51 PM
                                                      uses of int multiplynone2021/01/13 02:11 AM
                                                      uses of int multiplyJörn Engel2021/01/13 01:06 PM
                                                  isn't that an interesting contradiction? - gmpWilco2021/01/12 05:17 AM
                                                    isn't that an interesting contradiction? - gmpAdrian2021/01/12 06:07 AM
                        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Gabriele Svelto2021/01/01 04:31 PM
                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/01 10:58 PM
                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Gabriele Svelto2021/01/02 06:51 AM
                              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/02 08:57 AM
                                Ryzen 9 5000 series processor me2021/01/02 05:30 PM
                                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/02 11:43 PM
                        Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Björn Ragnar Björnsson2021/01/01 09:41 PM
                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/01 10:53 PM
                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2021/01/02 02:03 AM
                              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/02 08:39 AM
                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2021/01/02 01:52 AM
                          Ryzen 9 5000 series processor me2021/01/02 06:56 AM
                            Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Michael S2021/01/02 12:41 PM
                              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Adrian2021/01/02 01:43 PM
                              Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Jukka Larja2021/01/02 11:50 PM
                          Crucial/Micron ECC UDIMMsGabriele Svelto2021/01/02 07:09 AM
                            Crucial/Micron ECC UDIMMsMaxwell2021/01/02 10:45 AM
                              Crucial/Micron ECC UDIMMsYuhong Bao2021/01/02 07:29 PM
                  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor Phil9955112021/01/03 08:46 AM
  Ryzen 9 5000 series processor H_Heckuba2021/01/03 01:06 PM
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