What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?

By: wumpus (wumpus.delete@this.lost.in.a.hole), March 26, 2021 9:45 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Paul A. Clayton (paaronclayton.delete@this.gmail.com) on March 26, 2021 8:21 am wrote:
> Moritz (better.delete@this.not.tell) on March 20, 2021 5:21 am wrote:
> > What if you could completely rethink the general processor concept?
>
> As already noted, this is a huge topic; it deserves a response on
> the scale of Donald Knuth's The Art of Computer Programming.
>

I think you've hit the elephant in the room. A modern core is a means of exploiting the locality of ~8-64k of cache with a ~1ns latency. With sufficiently predictable code, it might even hit the locality of 256-512k L2, but it would seem wise not to design around that (floating point sides might be an exception).

Most of the exotic means I've seen to decouple serial execution don't seem to make any concessions to the size of the caches used or how far away from the registers and execution units they will have to be. Too big a cache and the latency goes up. Too many logical units (for high-IPC) around the L1 caches and the latency goes up. Increasing the number of L1 caches means you now have a much bigger networking problem (and creating an effective kilocore processor might be a good first step in such a computer. One huge problem at a time).

As you mentioned, one method to avoid this would be to have good enough prefetching that your latency and/or size isn't critical (you are effectively pulling from a higher cache with the latency of the lower cache). I've been gobsmacked at the size of Zen's branch prediction unit. Here we have a massive unit processing huge amounts of data on the CPU's current state. I strongly suspect that having such a unit makes anyone who needs a good 'ask the Oracle' answer (such as pre-fetching and possibly which microinstruction to send next to which pipeline) would also use the branch prediction unit as such an oracle.

One other way to circumvent this issue would be a 3d chip (Veedrac suggested a next generation machine would need to work in 3d, I suggested that it is possible that many such designs couldn't work without it). With L1 underneath the logic and presumably with short wires and low inductance, they could have reasonable latency with large size and large logic pipelines.
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TopicPosted ByDate
What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?Moritz2021/03/20 05:21 AM
  What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?Stanislav Shwartsman2021/03/20 06:22 AM
    I like the analysis of current arch presentedMoritz2021/03/20 10:13 AM
    Did you read this old article?Michael S2021/03/21 02:12 AM
  Deliver programs in IRHugo Décharnes2021/03/20 07:34 AM
    Java bytecode and Wasm exist, why invent something else? (NT)Foo_2021/03/20 08:01 AM
      Java bytecode and Wasm exist, why invent something else?Hugo Décharnes2021/03/20 08:55 AM
        Java bytecode and Wasm exist, why invent something else?Foo_2021/03/20 10:50 AM
          Java bytecode and Wasm exist, why invent something else?Hugo Décharnes2021/03/20 12:40 PM
            Java bytecode and Wasm exist, why invent something else?Foo_2021/03/20 04:54 PM
              It's called source code, no?anonymou52021/03/21 12:43 AM
                It's called source code, no?Foo_2021/03/21 05:07 AM
                Thoughts on software distribution formatsPaul A. Clayton2021/03/22 01:45 PM
    Deliver programs in IRJames2021/03/20 11:24 AM
      Deliver programs in IRHugo Décharnes2021/03/20 12:28 PM
        Deliver programs in IRHugo Décharnes2021/03/20 12:36 PM
    Deliver programs in IRLinus Torvalds2021/03/20 01:20 PM
      Deliver programs in IRHugo Décharnes2021/03/20 01:51 PM
      I'd like to be able to NOT specify order for some things ...Mark Roulo2021/03/20 05:49 PM
        I'd like to be able to NOT specify order for some things ...Jukka Larja2021/03/21 12:26 AM
          NOT (unintentionally) specify orderMoritz2021/03/21 06:00 AM
            NOT (unintentionally) specify orderJukka Larja2021/03/22 07:11 AM
              NOT (unintentionally) specify orderMoritz2021/03/22 12:40 PM
                NOT (unintentionally) specify orderJukka Larja2021/03/23 06:26 AM
          I'd like to be able to NOT specify order for some things ...Mark Roulo2021/03/21 09:47 AM
            I'd like to be able to NOT specify order for some things ...Victor Alander2021/03/21 05:14 PM
      Next architecture will start with MLwumpus2021/03/21 12:24 PM
        Next architecture will start with MLLinus Torvalds2021/03/21 02:38 PM
          Maybe SQL was the better example for general purpose machineswumpus2021/03/22 08:33 AM
            Maybe SQL was the better example for general purpose machinesanon2021/03/22 09:10 AM
        Next architecture will start with MLML will move to PIM2021/03/22 03:51 AM
    Deliver programs in IRanon2021/03/21 03:22 AM
      Deliver programs in IRanon22021/03/21 04:52 AM
        Deliver programs in IRrwessel2021/03/21 05:05 AM
          Deliver programs in IRanon22021/03/21 07:08 PM
            Deliver programs in IRrwessel2021/03/21 10:47 PM
              Deliver programs in IRdmcq2021/03/22 04:33 AM
                Deliver programs in IRrwessel2021/03/22 06:27 AM
  What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?Veedrac2021/03/20 11:27 AM
    Cray MTAanon2021/03/20 06:04 PM
      Cray MTAChester2021/03/20 07:54 PM
        Cray MTAVeedrac2021/03/21 01:33 AM
          Cray MTAnoone2021/03/21 09:15 AM
            Cray MTAVeedrac2021/03/21 10:54 AM
    monolithic 3Dwumpus2021/03/21 12:50 PM
  What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?Anon2021/03/21 12:06 AM
  What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?rwessel2021/03/21 05:02 AM
  What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?juanrga2021/03/21 05:46 AM
  Summery so farMoritz2021/03/21 09:45 AM
    Summery so farrwessel2021/03/21 11:23 AM
      not staticMoritz2021/03/26 10:12 AM
        Dynamic meta instruction encoding for instruction window compressionMoritz2021/03/28 03:28 AM
          redistributing the work between static compiler, dynamic compiler, CPUMoritz2021/04/05 03:21 AM
            redistributing the work between static compiler, dynamic compiler, CPUdmcq2021/04/05 09:27 AM
    Summery so farAnon2021/03/21 08:53 PM
  What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?blaine2021/03/21 10:10 AM
    What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?rwessel2021/03/21 11:26 AM
      What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?rwessel2021/03/21 11:34 AM
        What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?blaine2021/03/21 12:55 PM
          What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?rwessel2021/03/21 01:31 PM
      What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?gallier22021/03/22 12:49 AM
  What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?dmcq2021/03/21 03:50 PM
  Microthread/low IPCEtienne Lorrain2021/03/22 03:22 AM
    Microthread/low IPCdmcq2021/03/22 04:24 AM
      Microthread/low IPCEtienne Lorrain2021/03/22 06:10 AM
        Microthread/low IPCdmcq2021/03/22 08:24 AM
    Microthread/low IPCdmcq2021/03/22 04:53 AM
      Microthread/low IPCEtienne Lorrain2021/03/22 05:46 AM
      Microthread/low IPCAnon2021/03/22 05:47 AM
    Microthread/low IPCHeikki Kultala2021/03/22 05:47 PM
      Microthread/low IPCEtienne Lorrain2021/03/23 03:36 AM
        Microthread/low IPCNyan2021/03/24 03:00 AM
          Microthread/low IPCEtienne Lorrain2021/03/24 04:23 AM
      Microthread/low IPCAnon2021/03/23 08:16 AM
        Microthread/low IPCgai2021/03/23 09:37 AM
          Microthread/low IPCAnon2021/03/23 10:17 AM
            Microthread/low IPCdmcq2021/03/23 12:42 PM
  Have you looked at "The Mill CPU" project? (nt)Anon C2021/03/22 06:21 AM
    Have you looked at "The Mill CPU" project? (nt)Moritz2021/03/22 12:13 PM
      Have you looked at "The Mill CPU" project? (nt)Andrew Clough2021/03/22 04:27 PM
        The Mill = vaporwareRichardC2021/03/23 12:47 PM
          The Mill = vaporwareMichael S2021/03/23 01:58 PM
          The Mill = vaporwareCarson2021/03/23 06:17 PM
          The Mill = doomed but interestingAndrew Clough2021/03/24 08:06 AM
            Solution in search of a problemwumpus2021/03/24 08:52 AM
              Solution in search of a problemdmcq2021/03/24 10:22 AM
          never-ware != vaporware (at least in connotation)Paul A. Clayton2021/03/24 10:37 AM
  What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?anonini2021/03/22 08:28 AM
    microcode that can combine instructionMoritz2021/03/22 12:26 PM
  What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?anony2021/03/22 10:16 AM
    Totally clueless.Heikki Kultala2021/03/22 05:53 PM
  Hierarchical instruction setHeikki Kultala2021/03/22 06:52 PM
    Hierarchical instruction setVeedrac2021/03/23 03:49 AM
      Hierarchical instruction setHeikki Kultala2021/03/23 06:46 AM
        Hierarchical instruction setEtienne Lorrain2021/03/23 07:16 AM
          microthreads on OS call/exceptionHeikki Kultala2021/03/23 07:34 AM
        Hierarchical instruction setVeedrac2021/03/23 09:31 AM
          Hierarchical instruction setEtienne Lorrain2021/03/24 01:13 AM
            Hierarchical instruction setVeedrac2021/03/24 07:11 AM
    Hierarchical instruction setAnon2021/03/23 08:39 AM
  What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?Paul A. Clayton2021/03/26 08:21 AM
    What are your ideas for a radically different CPU ISA + physical Arch?wumpus2021/03/26 09:45 AM
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