commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talk

By: Daniel B (fejenagy.delete@this.gmail.com), March 24, 2021 8:08 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
James (no.delete@this.thanks.invalid) on March 24, 2021 3:39 am wrote:
> Daniel B (fejenagy.delete@this.gmail.com) on March 23, 2021 4:46 pm wrote:
>
> > I don't for a second believe Intel foundry (or semi-custom
> > silicon) failed in the past for technical reasons,
> > it has failed for political and mismanagement reasons.
>
> Um. Last time, the timing was such that a lot of customers were eyeing Intel's original 10 nm process
> for its promised technical advantages, and those would have been the big customers willing to pay
> for speed and power benefits. Political and management reasons may have been what ruined the technology,
> but the technology would have stopped those customers getting their (working) chips.
>
> Which is not to say that Intel politics weren't capable of sinking
> those particular projects, just that we can't say they did.
>

My reading is that precisely for politics (ambition, hubris, asserting one's point of view) that led to mismanagement of technical risk factors Intel has ended up with a turd in the punchbowl. To make things worse of course they promised all that to external customers too to pretty much kickstart Intel foundry, nonsensically on the bleeding edge (enlarging the risk envelope even further). I don't think there was any need for any of that, at the risk of stating the obvious. A much less ambitious 10nm shipping on time, what, 3 or 4 years ago, and then an EUV 7nm shipping last year would have been much more valuable to everyone considered, even if the lead over TSMC would have all but disappeared. It sounds very much like hindsight, but the people involved really should have known better. I suspect some of them indeed knew better, but were overruled, hence my deduction: politics.


> > ...all the 14nm fabs paid for 2 times over, that must help with cost competitiveness too.
>
> Not if they're running flat out making Intel IP. It's only recently that we've stopped hearing about Intel
> shortages, and by that time Intel was enough into panic mode that they wouldn't want to sell 14 nm capacity
> in case they needed it for themselves (for example, if the most recent 10 nm process yields turned out to
> be lower than expected). And, obviously, it takes a while to port chips to Intel's processes.

All fair points, and after all this blunder and panicking not sure if there are even any prospects lined up for the 14nm capacity that should become available for customers by the time they port a design. But those capacities will gradually become available over the next 2-3 years. Here is where Gelsinger can make a difference. Intel's massive 14nm capacity must be valuable to a large number of customer designs for years to come, and figuring that all out will serve Intel foundry well with relationships, tools/flows and experience.

>
> > I will not be surprised if Apple ends up fabbing
> > some M-parts with Intel in a few years. If for nothing else, to keep TSMC honest.
>
> That absolutely sounds like something Apple would do.

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TopicPosted ByDate
Intel's IDM 2.0 announcementJon Masters2021/03/23 03:31 PM
  Intel's IDM 2.0 announcementRayla2021/03/23 03:45 PM
    Intel's IDM 2.0 announcementdmcq2021/03/23 04:30 PM
    commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkDaniel B2021/03/23 04:46 PM
      commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkKester L2021/03/23 04:56 PM
        commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkanonymou52021/03/24 12:57 AM
          commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkme2021/03/24 03:25 AM
            commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkJoe2021/03/24 05:56 AM
              commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkMichael S2021/03/24 06:47 AM
                commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkme2021/03/24 07:04 AM
      commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkJames2021/03/24 03:39 AM
        Intel gutted 7 nmme2021/03/24 03:48 AM
          Intel gutted 7 nmDoug S2021/03/24 08:20 AM
            Intel gutted 7 nmanon2021/03/25 12:43 PM
              Intel gutted 7 nmeh2021/03/26 02:36 AM
                Intel gutted 7 nmAdrian2021/03/26 08:58 AM
                  Intel gutted 7 nmwumpus2021/03/26 09:53 AM
                  Intel gutted 7 nmme2021/03/26 10:11 AM
                  Intel gutted 7 nmMaxwell2021/03/26 02:21 PM
                    Intel gutted 7 nmYoav2021/03/29 01:06 AM
              Intel gutted 7 nmDoug S2021/03/26 09:43 AM
                Intel gutted 7 nmanon2021/03/26 03:39 PM
                  Intel gutted 7 nmNoSpammer2021/03/26 08:46 PM
                    Intel gutted 7 nmAdrian2021/03/26 11:57 PM
                      Intel gutted 7 nmAndrey2021/03/28 06:18 PM
                    Intel gutted 7 nmanon2021/03/27 05:52 AM
                    Intel gutted 7 nmwumpus2021/03/27 12:16 PM
                  Intel gutted 7 nmDoug S2021/03/27 05:08 PM
                    Intel gutted 7 nmanon2021/12/13 03:05 PM
                      Intel gutted 7 nm---2021/12/13 04:31 PM
                      Intel gutted 7 nmDoug S2021/12/13 09:34 PM
                        Intel gutted 7 nmanon2021/12/13 10:41 PM
                          Intel gutted 7 nmDoug S2021/12/14 11:38 AM
                            Intel gutted 7 nmanon2021/12/14 11:58 AM
                            Feed the Troll less (unless you are enjoying it!)Mark Roulo2021/12/14 01:52 PM
                Intel gutted 7 nmblue2021/03/27 10:16 AM
                  Intel gutted 7 nmme2021/03/27 12:22 PM
                  Intel gutted 7 nmDoug S2021/03/27 05:14 PM
                    Intel gutted 7 nmDavid Kanter2021/04/07 09:06 PM
                      Intel gutted 7 nmDoug S2021/04/08 12:38 PM
        commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkDaniel B2021/03/24 08:08 AM
      commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkDoug S2021/03/24 08:12 AM
      commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkMaxwell2021/03/25 11:16 AM
        commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkme2021/03/25 11:38 AM
          commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkAdrian2021/03/25 01:01 PM
            commitment to foundry, shutting down fabless talkme2021/03/27 12:57 PM
    A lot has changed since thenDoug S2021/03/24 08:01 AM
    Intel's IDM 2.0 announcementGabriele Svelto2021/03/25 03:17 AM
  Intel's IDM 2.0 announcementBeastian2021/03/23 05:39 PM
    Intel's IDM 2.0 announcementJames2021/03/24 03:14 AM
      Intel's IDM 2.0 announcementme2021/03/24 03:37 AM
        Intel's IDM 2.0 announcementJames2021/03/24 03:53 AM
      Intel's IDM 2.0 announcementanonymou52021/03/24 08:39 AM
    Intel's IDM 2.0 announcementJukka Larja2021/03/24 06:05 AM
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  5nm the end of DRAM?Brett2021/03/25 05:17 PM
    What is next after DDR5?Ganon2021/03/25 05:56 PM
      What is next after DDR5?wumpus2021/03/26 09:10 AM
        What is next after DDR5?Brett2021/03/26 04:39 PM
          What is next after DDR5?wumpus2021/03/28 10:44 AM
      What is next after DDR5?Brett2021/03/27 04:27 PM
        What is next after DDR5?Doug S2021/03/27 05:18 PM
      What is next after DDR5?Anononymous Coward2021/03/30 07:03 AM
        What is next after DDR5?Andrey2021/03/30 09:09 AM
          What is next after DDR5?David Hess2021/04/04 08:52 PM
      What is next after DDR5?David Hess2021/04/04 08:45 PM
        What is next after DDR5?Doug S2021/04/05 06:57 AM
          What is next after DDR5?David Hess2021/04/05 10:45 AM
          Same costAnon2021/04/05 11:31 AM
            Same costDavid Hess2021/04/05 08:26 PM
            Same costMaxwell2021/04/06 07:17 PM
              Same costDavid Hess2021/04/07 02:35 PM
          What is next after DDR5?wumpus2021/04/07 09:06 AM
      L4 is not a memory technologyHeikki Kultala2021/04/07 12:38 PM
        DRAM cachewumpus2021/04/08 08:24 AM
        Intel iGPU memory was eDRAM, not SRAMMark Roulo2021/04/08 11:31 AM
          I am not talking about the eDRAM. I am talking about the cache that is L3 for CPUHeikki Kultala2021/04/08 11:09 PM
            I am not talking about the eDRAM. I am talking about the cache that is L3 for CPURobert Williams2021/04/09 11:24 AM
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                This STILL has NOTHING to do with the eDRAM. I am talking about the SRAM LLC---2021/04/09 01:40 PM
    5nm the end of DRAM?Rayla2021/03/26 09:28 AM
      5nm the end of DRAM?riy2021/04/08 06:26 AM
        5nm the end of DRAM?Michael S2021/04/08 11:51 AM
    5nm the end of DRAM?Doug S2021/03/26 09:52 AM
      5nm the end of DRAM?wumpus2021/04/07 09:10 AM
        5nm the end of DRAM?Robert Williams2021/04/07 11:05 AM
    Totaly misunderstanding of DDR SDRAM memory interfaces and DRAMHeikki Kultala2021/04/07 12:36 PM
      Totaly misunderstanding of DDR SDRAM memory interfaces and DRAManonymou52021/04/07 01:13 PM
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