Leaving it to software is tricky!

By: David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com), March 31, 2021 8:41 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org) on March 31, 2021 5:08 pm wrote:
> anon2 (anon.delete@this.anon.com) on March 31, 2021 3:46 pm wrote:
> > >
> > > For example, I see no sign that the ARM 'tstart' instruction has a success predictor
> > > behind it. And once again - without a hardware predictor, you can make up benchmarks
> > > that show how well it works, but real life will bite you in the arse.
> >
> > Wouldn't that be purely microarchitectural? What kind of sign would you expect to see
> > if they intended to implement such a thing (which I agree seems like a good idea).
>
> I agree that it could be seen as purely a microarchitectural detail, and not visible to users.
>
> However, even in that case, I'd expect there to be signs of it in the architecture definition.
> For example, the 'tstart' instruction should look a lot more like a branch, so that the predictor
> logic could act on it exactly that way, and just go to the fallback case.
>
> Another sign that ARM is not designing it with a transaction predictor in mind
> is that the result register doesn't have a "predicted not successful" case.
>
> That said, both could be added later: the first by simply just treating the 'tstart/cbnz'
> sequence as one fused instruction, and the second by adding a new error code. But since
> it's not there architecturally in the initial version, I'd expect that software then
> has to do the prediction for it, and then you're kind of stuck with that garbage.
>
> In fact, looking at the definition of 'tstart', I see all the same old
> signs that "yup, software is supposed to guess whether to try again".
>
> And there is zero question that you absolutely need prediction. Particularly with big transactions, you simply
> cannot afford to do a lot of work, only to then cause a failure just because of transaction size (and we know
> that some transactions will be fundamentally too large, if you try to use 'tstart' for locking).
>
> If the hardware doesn't do it, then the software has to do it, and that involves having software
> try to keep track of "this lock taker in this context has failed before due to transaction size
> issues, so let's not do the HW TM now because we know it's likely going to fail again".
>
> That kind of thing is expensive to do in software. You need to have counters for
> the the success/failure cases, and you need to somehow associate those counters
> with a particular code flow. Exactly like branch prediction hardware does.
>
> Honestly, anybody who tells me that software could do branch prediction is somebody who I
> wouldn't let near a new architecture. So why the h*ll do people think that software should
> do transaction success prediction? It's the exact same thing, with the exact same issues.
>
> Go look at the ARM papers, and tell me that there is any sign that they actually thought
> about this all. Because I don't see it. I see them barreling down the exact same mistakes
> that we've already seen with x86 and ppc, both of which have been abject failures.
>
> Anybody remember what the definition of insanity is, again?

As someone who spent a ton of time working on HTM and speculative multi-threading, I'd like to echo Linus' view that handling prediction and transaction scope is a real problem.

The system we designed at Strandera used dynamically sized transactions and did a lot of analysis to scope correctly. Without that, your life will get very unpleasant in a hurry.

One of the key problems with early implementations (e.g., Sun's Rock) was that too many things could cause aborts. You really need to ensure that TX abort is really rare.

David



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TopicPosted ByDate
Armv9 officially announcedJon Masters2021/03/30 11:41 AM
  Armv9 officially announcedGabriele Svelto2021/03/30 01:27 PM
    HTM and TLEFoo_2021/03/30 01:31 PM
      HTM and TLEdmcq2021/03/30 03:03 PM
      Intel RTM and HLE is a successGanon2021/03/30 05:22 PM
        Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Foo_2021/03/31 01:16 AM
          Intel RTM and HLE was an abject failureanonymou52021/03/31 03:04 AM
          Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Andrey2021/03/31 05:27 AM
            Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Foo_2021/03/31 05:58 AM
              Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Andrey2021/03/31 07:45 AM
                Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Foo_2021/03/31 09:32 AM
                  Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Andrey2021/03/31 09:57 AM
                    Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)anonymou52021/03/31 10:39 AM
                      ^ feel free to delete this one -- broken HTML there (NT)anonymou52021/03/31 10:40 AM
                      Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Andrey2021/03/31 10:47 AM
                    Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)anonymou52021/03/31 10:40 AM
                Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Ganon2021/03/31 09:58 AM
                  Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)anonymou52021/03/31 10:42 AM
                  Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Linus Torvalds2021/03/31 11:54 AM
                    Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Linus Torvalds2021/03/31 12:00 PM
                      Any idea about IBM?Mark Roulo2021/03/31 12:15 PM
                        Any idea about IBM?Linus Torvalds2021/03/31 12:37 PM
                          Any idea about IBM?dmcq2021/03/31 03:04 PM
                            Any idea about IBM?Linus Torvalds2021/03/31 04:44 PM
                              A non straw man view of hardware transactional memoryGanon2021/03/31 07:52 PM
                                A non straw man view of hardware transactional memoryanon22021/03/31 11:03 PM
                                  A non straw man view of hardware transactional memoryCarson2021/04/02 01:11 AM
                                    A non straw man view of hardware transactional memoryanon22021/04/02 05:28 AM
                              IBM zArch TM - guaranteed progressDavid Kanter2021/03/31 08:37 PM
                              Any idea about IBM?Andrey2021/03/31 11:31 PM
                                Any idea about IBM?Linus Torvalds2021/04/01 10:54 AM
                                  Any idea about IBM?Andrey2021/04/02 12:50 PM
                        Any idea about IBM?someone2021/04/01 12:02 AM
                      Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)anon22021/03/31 03:46 PM
                        Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Linus Torvalds2021/03/31 05:08 PM
                          Leaving it to software is tricky!David Kanter2021/03/31 08:41 PM
                            And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingCarson2021/04/01 11:13 PM
                              Hardware fallback pathAnon2021/04/02 10:51 AM
                              And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingLinus Torvalds2021/04/03 10:41 AM
                                And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingLinus Torvalds2021/04/03 11:11 AM
                                  And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingsr2021/04/03 11:30 AM
                                    And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingLinus Torvalds2021/04/03 12:14 PM
                                      And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingsr2021/04/03 12:39 PM
                                        And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingAnon2021/04/03 02:08 PM
                                          And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingsr2021/04/03 02:33 PM
                                            And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingdmcq2021/04/04 05:35 AM
                                        And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingLinus Torvalds2021/04/03 02:22 PM
                                          Transactional memory isn't exclusive to lockingsr2021/04/04 12:17 AM
                                            Transactional memory isn't exclusive to lockingAspect of Anonimity2021/04/04 03:49 AM
                                            Transactional memory isn't exclusive to lockingAndrey2021/04/04 04:58 AM
                                              Transactional memory isn't exclusive to lockingsr2021/04/04 10:10 AM
                                                Transactional memory isn't exclusive to lockingAndrey2021/04/04 10:33 AM
                                                  Transactional memory isn't exclusive to lockingsr2021/04/05 02:41 AM
                                      And a hardware predicttor needs access to fallback timingGeertB2021/04/04 07:08 PM
                            Leaving it to software is tricky!Andrey2021/04/02 03:00 PM
                          Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)@never_released2021/04/01 08:21 AM
                            Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)@never_released2021/04/01 08:30 AM
                            Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Linus Torvalds2021/04/01 10:00 AM
                              Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)dmcq2021/04/01 10:35 AM
                                Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Linus Torvalds2021/04/01 10:59 AM
                                  Is HTM actually in ARMv9?dncq2021/04/01 11:26 AM
                                    Is HTM actually in ARMv9?Linus Torvalds2021/04/01 12:13 PM
                              Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Jörn Engel2021/04/01 09:15 PM
                          Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)---2021/04/02 10:00 AM
                      Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Jon Masters2021/04/01 10:56 AM
                        RockMichael S2021/04/01 12:29 PM
            Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Linus Torvalds2021/03/31 11:50 AM
              Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)anon22021/03/31 03:57 PM
                Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)anon32021/03/31 04:09 PM
          Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)someone2021/03/31 11:56 PM
            Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)someone2021/04/01 12:21 AM
              Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)none2021/04/01 04:31 AM
                Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)anonymou52021/04/01 09:24 AM
                  Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)anony2021/04/01 10:26 AM
                  Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)none2021/04/01 11:20 AM
                Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Brendan2021/04/01 05:23 PM
                  Intel RTM and HLE is a success (is it?)Adrian2021/04/02 01:03 AM
      Transactional memory similarity to garbage collectionPaul A. Clayton2021/04/05 01:53 PM
        Maybe notMark Roulo2021/04/05 03:07 PM
        Transactional memory similarity to garbage collectionAnon2021/04/05 03:14 PM
        No conflict between theory and practiceAspect of Anonimity2021/04/05 07:57 PM
          No conflict between theory and practiceNoSpammer2021/04/05 09:38 PM
            No conflict between theory and practicedmcq2021/04/06 07:05 AM
              No conflict between theory and practicesr2021/04/06 09:22 AM
                No conflict between theory and practiceBen LaHaise2021/04/06 03:43 PM
                  No conflict between theory and practicesr2021/04/07 09:42 AM
                    No conflict between theory and practiceAnon2021/04/07 10:06 AM
                    No conflict between theory and practiceLinus Torvalds2021/04/07 10:35 AM
                      No conflict between theory and practicesr2021/04/07 12:34 PM
                        If HTM were well implemented, nobody would complain (NT)Anon2021/04/07 12:54 PM
                          If HTM were well implemented, nobody would complaindmcq2021/04/07 03:36 PM
                            If HTM were well implemented, nobody would complainAnon2021/04/07 04:04 PM
                          If HTM were well implemented, nobody would complain---2021/04/08 09:37 AM
                        No conflict between theory and practiceLinus Torvalds2021/04/07 01:20 PM
                          No conflict between theory and practiceAndrey2021/04/07 02:32 PM
                            No conflict between theory and practicedmcq2021/04/07 03:32 PM
                              No conflict between theory and practiceanonymou52021/04/07 04:26 PM
                              No conflict between theory and practiceAndrey2021/04/07 05:54 PM
                                No conflict between theory and practiceLinus Torvalds2021/04/08 08:41 AM
                                  No conflict between theory and practiceAndrey2021/04/08 09:12 AM
                                  No conflict between theory and practiceRobert Williams2021/04/08 09:15 AM
                                    No conflict between theory and practiceLinus Torvalds2021/04/08 09:56 AM
                                      No conflict between theory and practiceRobert Williams2021/04/08 07:50 PM
                                        No conflict between theory and practiceLinus Torvalds2021/04/09 09:25 AM
                                          TSX for all?Robert Williams2021/04/09 12:46 PM
                                            It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Mark Roulo2021/04/09 12:54 PM
                                              It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.me2021/04/09 02:21 PM
                                                It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Andrey2021/04/10 07:08 AM
                                                  It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.me2021/04/10 12:43 PM
                                                    It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Robert Williams2021/04/10 07:05 PM
                                                      It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Andrey2021/04/11 01:42 AM
                                                        It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Michael S2021/04/11 04:23 AM
                                              It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Robert Williams2021/04/10 08:24 AM
                                                It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Andrey2021/04/10 10:36 AM
                                                  It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Michael S2021/04/10 10:58 AM
                                                    It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Robert Williams2021/04/10 11:42 AM
                                                    It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Brendan2021/04/10 11:27 PM
                                                      It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Michael S2021/04/11 03:34 AM
                                                        It helps adoption when developers can run the code an their machines.Brendan2021/04/11 04:18 PM
                                            TSX for all?wumpus2021/04/09 01:10 PM
                                            TSX for all?Linus Torvalds2021/04/09 03:03 PM
                                              [CLICK BAIT?] Torvalds to recommend arm64!anonymous22021/04/09 03:17 PM
                                              TSX for all?Linus Torvalds2021/04/09 03:22 PM
                                                amen! (NT)anonymou52021/04/09 05:42 PM
                                            TSX for all?Emil Briggs2021/04/10 05:52 AM
                                              TSX for all?Michael S2021/04/10 11:13 AM
                                                TSX for all?Brendan2021/04/10 11:05 PM
                                          No conflict between theory and practiceanonymouse2021/04/09 03:02 PM
                            No conflict between theory and practiceLinus Torvalds2021/04/07 05:12 PM
                              No conflict between theory and practiceAndrey2021/04/07 05:33 PM
                                No conflict between theory and practiceanon22021/04/07 08:12 PM
                                  No conflict between theory and practiceAndrey2021/04/08 12:29 AM
                                    No conflict between theory and practiceAnon2021/04/08 12:50 AM
                                    No conflict between theory and practiceanon22021/04/08 12:52 AM
                                      No conflict between theory and practiceAndrey2021/04/08 02:41 AM
                                        No conflict between theory and practiceAdrian2021/04/08 03:09 AM
                                          No conflict between theory and practiceAndrey2021/04/08 03:50 AM
                                            No conflict between theory and practiceAdrian2021/04/08 05:07 AM
                                            No conflict between theory and practiceanon22021/04/08 05:18 AM
                                              No conflict between theory and practiceAndrey2021/04/08 08:18 AM
                                                No conflict between theory and practiceanon22021/04/08 09:11 AM
                                                  No conflict between theory and practiceAndrey2021/04/08 09:48 AM
                                                    No conflict between theory and practiceanon22021/04/08 04:10 PM
                                            No conflict between theory and practice---2021/04/08 08:30 PM
                                              No conflict between theory and practicedmcq2021/04/09 02:25 AM
                                                No conflict between theory and practiceLinus Torvalds2021/04/09 09:44 AM
                                        No conflict between theory and practiceanon22021/04/08 04:09 AM
                                          No conflict between theory and practicesr2021/04/10 01:22 AM
                                            No conflict between theory and practiceAnon2021/04/10 04:00 AM
                                              No conflict between theory and practiceEtienne Lorrain2021/04/12 12:56 AM
                                                No conflict between theory and practiceAnon2021/04/12 01:54 AM
                                                  No conflict between theory and practicedmcq2021/04/12 01:44 PM
                              No conflict between theory and practiceGabriele Svelto2021/04/08 01:03 AM
                                No conflict between theory and practicedmcq2021/04/12 01:53 PM
                                  No conflict between theory and practicedmcq2021/04/14 04:50 AM
                      transactional memory = memory lock/unlocksr2021/04/10 12:56 AM
                        transactional memory = memory lock/unlockAnon2021/04/10 04:05 AM
                    No conflict between theory and practiceanon22021/04/07 05:19 PM
                No conflict between theory and practicedmcq2021/04/07 01:16 PM
            No conflict between theory and practiceAnon2021/04/06 10:46 AM
            No conflict between theory and practiceAspect of Anonimity2021/04/06 02:16 PM
              No conflict between theory and practiceNoSpammer2021/04/10 12:02 AM
                No conflict between theory and practicesr2021/04/10 01:47 AM
                No conflict between theory and practiceAspect of Anonimity2021/04/10 11:30 PM
                  No conflict between theory and practiceAndrey2021/04/11 05:05 AM
                    HmAspect of Anonimity2021/04/12 07:29 PM
                      Special internal SRAM to store Mutex?Etienne Lorrain2021/04/13 01:01 AM
                        Special internal SRAM to store Mutex?Anon2021/04/13 01:26 AM
                        Special internal SRAM to store Mutex?Linus Torvalds2021/04/13 09:53 AM
                        Special internal SRAM to store Mutex?Dan Fay2021/04/13 12:03 PM
                          Special internal SRAM to store Mutex?Ben LaHaise2021/04/13 03:32 PM
                          Special internal SRAM to store Mutex?Gabriele Svelto2021/04/13 11:43 PM
                        Special internal SRAM to store Mutex?Carson2021/04/13 10:19 PM
          No conflict between theory and practicesr2021/04/06 07:12 AM
            No conflict between theory and practiceAnon2021/04/06 10:43 AM
            No conflict between theory and practiceAspect of Anonimity2021/04/06 03:20 PM
              No conflict between theory and practicesr2021/04/07 10:09 AM
                No conflict between theory and practiceanon22021/04/07 08:53 PM
  Armv9 officially announceddmcq2021/03/30 03:28 PM
    Totally backwads logic on compatibilityHeikki Kultala2021/03/30 03:44 PM
      Totally backwads logic on compatibilityDoug S2021/03/31 12:09 PM
        Totally backwads logic on compatibilitydmcq2021/03/31 03:15 PM
  Armv9 officially announcedv92021/04/12 03:57 PM
    Armv9 officially announcedj2021/04/13 05:07 AM
      Armv9 officially announcedDoug S2021/04/13 10:21 AM
        Armv9 officially announcedanonymou52021/04/13 11:06 AM
          Armv9 officially announcedDoug S2021/04/13 01:01 PM
        Armv9 officially announceddmcq2021/04/13 03:20 PM
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