Don't compare manufacturing unit cost with sales price

By: Dummond D. Slow (mental.delete@this.protozoa.us), July 3, 2021 2:11 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
--- (---.delete@this.redheron.com) on July 2, 2021 11:22 am wrote:
> Mark Roulo (nothanks.delete@this.xxx.com) on July 2, 2021 10:07 am wrote:
> > Brett (ggtgp.delete@this.yahoo.com) on July 2, 2021 2:45 am wrote:
> > > Apple’s $35 ARM CPU’s in Macs have better performance than Intel’s $350 CPU’s.
> >
> > Please do not compare manufacturing unit cost with sales price.
> >
> > Apple would not sell these chips for $35 each if they were selling them to 3rd parties.
> >
> > Intel's manufacturing cost for the $350 CPUs is no where near $350.
>
> Prices are somewhat meaningless. But area is not.
> The Apple chips are (as far as I can tell) smaller than their Intel counterparts.
> How MUCH smaller turns into an unenlightening foodfight once people start arguing over
> the value of what else is on the Apple SoC, and whether it has an Intel equivalent.
> You can see what you get for Apple's ~120mm^2 here
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/16226/apple-silicon-m1-a14-deep-dive
>
> I think Ice Lake client ala https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/microarchitectures/ice_lake_(client)
> is more or less comparable
> For that same area you get (I believe) an inferior GPU, comparable (you can fight about it either way) CPU
> (of course at way higher energy cost). You get ~comparable DRAM (Apple is higher performance, but of course
> they do the non-expandable DRAM thing, but I think they ultimately have the same number of mem PHYs).
> For Intel you need the PCH (another ~55mm^2) but for that you get more IO connectivity, so call that a wash.
>
> BUT comparing the two 120mm^2, Apple gets basically the Intel functionality in about half the
> area. What's the other half of the area? Additional functionality like NPU, ISP, higher-performance
> media encoders/decoders,

those are also present in Intel's chip

> functional DMA, accelerators including TCP offload, etc.
>

this dunno

> So I think it's reasonable to say that Apple get Intel functionality
> in half the area, which you can convert into ~half the cost.
> Intel may spread their NRE over more units, but this is unclear. Apple sell about as many iPhones as
> PCs are sold. Of course Intel also sell to many other markets (though all smaller than PCs), but Intel
> also have much larger NRE because they carry so many SKUs (even if many of those SKUs are "fake").
>
> One HUGE element in all this is yield. We know the TSMC yield is very high.
> There's lots of reason to believe the Intel yield (certainly on 10nm) is very
> low. There could easily be at least another factor of 2 hiding there.


I don't know why you guys bother with these comparisons, anyway.

1) Intel is on a process node that's one generation older, so obviously they can't stuff the same complexity into the same area as the apple's soc. Kinda basic thing that should have been put into a disclaimer at the very start of all these convos, though then arguably they would make a lot less sense to have, I guess.

2) if the reason you were interested in chip area was cost, then the comparison makes even less sense. The cost of a wafer on a one-generation newer process is significantly higher, which means that a 120mm2 chip on 5nm might at the end be more costly to produce than a 200mm2 chip on 7nm (or Intel 10nm).
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          Don't compare manufacturing unit cost with sales priceMark Roulo2021/07/02 10:07 AM
            Don't compare manufacturing unit cost with sales price---2021/07/02 11:22 AM
              Don't compare manufacturing unit cost with sales priceme2021/07/02 11:32 AM
              Don't compare manufacturing unit cost with sales priceDummond D. Slow2021/07/03 02:11 PM
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                                "DOOMED"Anon2021/07/06 01:01 AM
                                  "DOOMED"Michael S2021/07/06 03:15 AM
                                    "DOOMED"dmcq2021/07/06 04:08 AM
                                      "DOOMED"me2021/07/06 04:57 AM
                                      "DOOMED"Michael S2021/07/06 05:09 AM
                                        "DOOMED"Anon2021/07/06 05:50 AM
                                          "DOOMED"Michael S2021/07/06 06:29 AM
                                  "DOOMED"Doug S2021/07/06 08:41 AM
                                    "DOOMED"Jukka Larja2021/07/06 10:55 PM
                                      "DOOMED"Doug S2021/07/07 12:21 AM
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                                dumb terminalsanonymous22021/07/06 10:51 AM
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                    Interesting ARM compatibility - Procedure values?---2021/07/04 09:42 AM
                      Interesting ARM compatibility - Procedure values?dmcq2021/07/04 02:44 PM
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