Alternatives?

By: FrankHB (frankhb1989.delete@this.gmail.com), July 17, 2021 6:56 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Jörn Engel (joern.delete@this.purestorage.com) on July 13, 2021 4:53 pm wrote:

> Agreed. It is hard to argue taste in a productive manner. But I have also been intrigued
> by Rust and wanted to use it for some new project. A combination of the syntax and the culture
> of "download yet another 50 packages from the internet" quickly made me reconsider.

Strongly agreed. It should be a freedom of choices, rather than an obligation, to make the normal development and deployment processes rely on some online resource for a language like Rust (in contrast to "Web languages").

Moreover, relying on the online resources should better not be the default option without some forms of "informed consent" from users. And there should be easy fallbacks (by manually putting the packages in some known locations) when no network connection is available. Actually this is also the reason I don't like build tools like gradle.

> - In general, I have a package manager that comes with my OS. I do *not* want
> to run yet another package manager that subverts my OS. If you consider that
> acceptable practice, I am not interested in anything else you do either.

This is usually not feasible, since the maintainers of the OS package repo would not follow to prepare everything needed in the language community. Few communities would like to provide the whole set of the binary images, so binary packages are usually to be maintained by the OS package repo, if needed, and policies of different OS communities vary to pick the needed packages. There are likely conflicts among policies. Additional manual work is also often required in integration of the packages built from source, since the OS package manager knows nothing about the build system (this is at least the normal case for C and C++).

OS package managers almost always do other bad things, by lacking of effective versioning management for packages. Most package managers do not support the coexistence of different versions of a package because their installation location clash in the filesystem. Alternative locations (like /opt/stuff) usually need some extra work to configure. Nix and guix a a few exceptions to get away with these problem by the support of explicit multi-versioning in the filesystem level, but the experience is still not good to make the approach popular enough, acceptable by average developers and system vendors. They are also too system-specific: at least mandating systemd is not a good practice for every developers.

The global instance of system-wide package manager may require administrative privilege for installation and configuration, which is also somehow inconvenient.

The traditional system-wide package manager is also incapable for massive reconfiguration, e.g. renaming some package prefixes from "python3-" to "python-" requires manual reconfirmation. There are additional risks to break integration pipeline globally, if there are some filesystem layout changes during the transition. Such transitions can be more easily handled by a smarter package manager knowing the target language details.

And anyway, you already have some instances of coexistence of both types of the package managers for languages like Python and Perl... (Consider what a developer should do when he/she can't find the needed packages from the OS package manager.)

For these reasons, I will develop a package manager for my own language. The OS package manager should not be directly relied on in normal dev/CI pipelines. However, there can be plugins to utilize external package sources for non-local packages, including the OS package manager.

> - CamelCase isn't my cup of tea, I prefer under_scores. But mixing the two is worse than either choice. I
> am constantly distracted by the utter tastelessness and can no longer concentrate on what the code does.

Mixing the two is already often unavoidable for most codebases derived from C. For example, the standard library of C++ follows the C tradition, which is almost under_scores anywhere (the only exception IIRC is _Init in iostream). But most C++/ObjC/ObjC+_ frameworks uses CamalCase.

>
> Maybe Rust is more appealing if you already deal with C++ (I mostly use C). But I suspect even that isn't
> strictly true and you have to deal with the right flavor of C++ to feel at home with Rust. Not sure.
>

This is somewhat true for every senior C++ users, mostly because of the ownership model/the RAII idiom. C++ users may (likely) also have better patience to the compiling performance issues. It might be not that true for other parts (to list a few, lacking of exceptions and side-effectful copy constructors).

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TopicPosted ByDate
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        Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?cqwrteur2021/07/10 03:42 PM
      Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?anon2021/07/11 05:11 AM
        Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?cqwrteur2021/07/12 11:40 AM
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      Most RWT posters don’t decide what goes into the Linux kernelMark Roulo2021/07/10 11:55 AM
      Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?Foo_2021/07/22 10:10 AM
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      Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?cqwrteur2021/07/10 09:24 AM
        Déja VuDismissive2021/07/10 09:41 AM
          Déja Vucqwrteur2021/07/10 09:47 AM
            Déja VuDismissive2021/07/10 09:51 AM
            Déja VuMichael S2021/07/10 12:11 PM
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    Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?cqwrteur2021/07/10 12:32 PM
      Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?Michael S2021/07/10 01:04 PM
        Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?cqwrteur2021/07/10 01:25 PM
      Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?Gabriele Svelto2021/07/10 02:56 PM
        Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?cqwrteur2021/07/10 03:41 PM
          Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?Rayla2021/07/10 04:33 PM
            Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?cqwrteur2021/07/10 05:27 PM
              Interesting response... (NT)Rayla2021/07/10 08:02 PM
                perhaps just another lousy AI bot? (NT)anonymou52021/07/10 08:33 PM
                  perhaps just another lousy AI bot?dmcq2021/07/10 10:26 PM
                    perhaps just another lousy AI bot?cqwrteur2021/07/10 10:56 PM
                      perhaps just another lousy AI bot?dmcq2021/07/11 02:29 AM
                      perhaps just another lousy AI bot?anon2021/07/11 05:16 AM
                        perhaps just another lousy AI bot?cqwrteur2021/07/12 02:56 PM
                    perhaps just another lousy AI bot?Rayla2021/07/11 05:13 AM
                      perhaps just another lousy AI bot?cqwrteur2021/07/11 10:59 AM
                        When did I call you a bot, Kebabbert? (NT)Rayla2021/07/11 07:51 PM
              Alternatives?Brendan2021/07/11 12:54 AM
                Alternatives?Michael S2021/07/11 05:01 AM
                  Alternatives?Brendan2021/07/11 05:51 AM
                    Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/11 10:58 AM
                      Alternatives?Gabriele Svelto2021/07/12 12:31 AM
                        Alternatives?Michael S2021/07/12 02:58 AM
                          Alternatives?anon22021/07/12 08:08 AM
                            Alternatives?Michael S2021/07/12 08:22 AM
                              cqwrteur: Keep it politeDavid Kanter2021/07/13 07:59 AM
                          Alternatives?dmcq2021/07/12 08:37 AM
                            Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/12 03:04 PM
                              Alternatives?dmcq2021/07/12 03:26 PM
                                Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/13 12:47 AM
                                  Alternatives?dmcq2021/07/13 05:54 AM
                          Alternatives?Jörn Engel2021/07/13 03:53 PM
                            Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/17 06:56 AM
                          Differences between Rust and C/GoGabriele Svelto2021/07/14 04:57 AM
                            Differences between Rust and C/GoFrankHB2021/07/17 08:47 AM
                        Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/12 09:08 AM
                          Alternatives?Gabriele Svelto2021/07/14 01:28 PM
                            Inappropriate messages removed: cqwrteurDavid Kanter2021/07/15 09:59 AM
                            Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/16 05:43 AM
                              Alternatives?Anon2021/07/16 11:01 AM
                                Alternatives?Gabriele Svelto2021/07/16 12:44 PM
                                Type abstraction and kernel programmingFrankHB2021/07/17 12:44 AM
                                  Type abstraction and kernel programmingdmcq2021/07/18 03:00 AM
                                    Type abstraction and kernel programmingdmcq2021/07/18 03:36 AM
                                  Type abstraction and kernel programmingEtienne Lorrain2021/07/19 12:03 AM
                                    Type abstraction and kernel programmingdmcq2021/07/19 01:01 AM
                                      Type abstraction and kernel programmingAnon2021/07/19 01:05 AM
                                        Type abstraction and kernel programmingdmcq2021/07/19 02:23 AM
                                      Type abstraction and kernel programmingBrendan2021/07/19 06:05 AM
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                                  Alternatives?Anon2021/07/20 05:24 AM
                                    Alternatives?Michael S2021/07/20 09:14 AM
                                      Alternatives?Anon2021/07/20 09:53 AM
                                        Alternatives?gallier22021/07/21 10:44 PM
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                      Alternatives?Brendan2021/07/12 01:34 AM
                        Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/12 09:57 AM
                          Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/12 11:55 AM
                            Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/12 08:44 PM
                          Alternatives?Brendan2021/07/12 07:52 PM
                            Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/12 10:05 PM
                              Alternatives?Anon2021/07/12 10:42 PM
                                Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/12 11:42 PM
                                Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/12 11:44 PM
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                                    Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/13 08:36 PM
                                    Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/13 08:39 PM
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                                        Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/13 09:18 PM
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                                            Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/13 11:30 PM
                                              Alternatives?Anon2021/07/14 12:55 AM
                                                Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 01:22 AM
                                                  Alternatives?Anon2021/07/14 02:05 AM
                                                    Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 02:11 AM
                                                      Alternatives?Anon2021/07/14 03:16 AM
                                                        Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 06:06 AM
                                                          Alternatives?Anon2021/07/14 07:20 AM
                                                            Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 07:51 AM
                                                              Alternatives?Anon2021/07/14 11:33 AM
                                                              Alternatives?Gabriele Svelto2021/07/14 12:19 PM
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                                                    Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 02:50 AM
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                                            Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/13 11:39 PM
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                                                    Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 01:52 AM
                                                      Alternatives?dmcq2021/07/14 09:13 AM
                                                        Alternatives?dmcq2021/07/14 09:23 AM
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                                                          Dealing with memory errorsdmcq2021/07/14 03:27 PM
                                                            Dealing with memory errorsBrendan2021/07/14 03:55 PM
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                                                      Alternatives?Anon2021/07/14 03:16 AM
                                                        Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 05:55 AM
                                                      Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/16 06:27 AM
                                                Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 01:38 AM
                                                  Alternatives?anon2021/07/14 02:50 AM
                                                    Stop feeding that trollnone2021/07/14 03:13 AM
                                                    Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 06:39 AM
                                                      Alternatives?Brendan2021/07/14 11:15 AM
                                                  Alternatives?Anon2021/07/14 03:19 AM
                                                    Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 06:12 AM
                                                      Alternatives?Anon2021/07/14 07:17 AM
                                                        Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 07:47 AM
                                                          Alternatives?Anon2021/07/14 12:00 PM
                                                            Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 12:44 PM
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                                                    Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 12:46 PM
                                                      Alternatives?Gabriele Svelto2021/07/14 01:36 PM
                                                        Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 01:55 PM
                                                          Alternatives?Smoochie2021/07/14 11:07 PM
                                                  Alternatives?2021/07/15 07:37 AM
                                                    Alternatives?Brendan2021/07/15 10:21 AM
                                                      Alternatives?Anon2021/07/15 12:15 PM
                                                  Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/16 06:27 AM
                                          Alternatives?None2021/07/14 01:50 AM
                                            Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 01:54 AM
                                            Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 01:55 AM
                                              Alternatives?Rayla2021/07/14 04:47 AM
                                                Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/14 05:54 AM
                                              Alternatives?Gabriele Svelto2021/07/14 12:43 PM
                                Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/12 11:47 PM
                            Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/12 11:05 PM
                              Alternatives?Michael S2021/07/13 12:01 AM
                                Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/13 12:25 AM
                            Alternatives?Doug S2021/07/12 11:29 PM
                              Alternatives?cqwrteur2021/07/12 11:48 PM
                              Alternatives?FrankHB2021/07/13 12:07 AM
              Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?2021/07/12 05:27 AM
                Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?Anon2021/07/12 08:46 AM
                Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?Etienne Lorrain2021/07/13 01:00 AM
    Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future?cqwrteur2021/07/10 12:38 PM
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