By: Foo_ (foo.delete@this.nomail.com), July 22, 2021 10:10 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
cqwrteur (euloanty.delete@this.live.com) on July 10, 2021 9:59 am wrote:
> The argument
> unsafe is only used for exceptional circumanstances is just like the argument "C++ exceptions
> should only be used in exceptional circumanstances." They are completely wrong in real world.
What is this supposed to mean exactly? First, many C++ projects do not even use exceptions. Second, I fail to see the relevance of comparing the Rust "unsafe" keyword (a specialized facility for writing low-level code that needs to eschew default validations) with C++ exceptions (an error handling mechanism).
> 2. I seriously doubt that you truly need Rc, Arc (shared_ptr) or his friends
> in kernel. It does not look like a good code smell for me either.
Er... where did I say that they were needed for the kernel?
> 3. unsafe keyword has a side effect is that it might make attacker's
> life easier too since attacker can go and grep unsafe and attack it.
This is advocating for security through obscurity.
> I do not believe Rust code like "Rust-for-linux" truly make any code safer.
Perhaps, but your beliefs are irrelevant. The proof will be in the pudding, once a significant amount of Rust code has been integrated in the kernel.
> Can you show me an example using C or C++ kills people in real world?
Yawn. Is this supposed to be a serious discussion or are you only interested to reiterating this strawman over and over?
Whether or not C or C++ actually killed people is irrelevant. What is relevant is the actual socio-economical cost (or damage) of memory safety bugs.
> The safety in programming world has nothing to do with safety in real world.
Why wouldn't it, exactly?
> The cve numbers in rust std and crates (no including redox os, firefox etc, i can show them too) are a lot.
> Rust std in one year has 8 memory safety cves than all C++ standard library in entire lifespan
Does it? And why is that even relevant? The Linux kernel is not written in C++, it's written in C. It's C code that Rust is aiming to replace in the kernel.
If you think the kernel should also include C++ code, then why not. I'm not a Linux kernel maintainer. You'll need to convince them.
> The worst part like some cves like CVE-2021-31162 has CVSS 9.8 score (https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2021-31162)
> which is worse than Eternal Blue.
So? This certainly seems to show that Rust is still young and slightly immature in parts (which may be a legimitate concern). It doesn't show that the Rust-specific safety features are useless.
> You said i should try to contact people who wrote those code.
No. I said you should try to contact those people *or* people who maintain the kernel and accepted the code for inclusion. They are the people who can give you the explanations you claim to be looking for.
> The argument
> unsafe is only used for exceptional circumanstances is just like the argument "C++ exceptions
> should only be used in exceptional circumanstances." They are completely wrong in real world.
What is this supposed to mean exactly? First, many C++ projects do not even use exceptions. Second, I fail to see the relevance of comparing the Rust "unsafe" keyword (a specialized facility for writing low-level code that needs to eschew default validations) with C++ exceptions (an error handling mechanism).
> 2. I seriously doubt that you truly need Rc, Arc (shared_ptr) or his friends
> in kernel. It does not look like a good code smell for me either.
Er... where did I say that they were needed for the kernel?
> 3. unsafe keyword has a side effect is that it might make attacker's
> life easier too since attacker can go and grep unsafe and attack it.
This is advocating for security through obscurity.
> I do not believe Rust code like "Rust-for-linux" truly make any code safer.
Perhaps, but your beliefs are irrelevant. The proof will be in the pudding, once a significant amount of Rust code has been integrated in the kernel.
> Can you show me an example using C or C++ kills people in real world?
Yawn. Is this supposed to be a serious discussion or are you only interested to reiterating this strawman over and over?
Whether or not C or C++ actually killed people is irrelevant. What is relevant is the actual socio-economical cost (or damage) of memory safety bugs.
> The safety in programming world has nothing to do with safety in real world.
Why wouldn't it, exactly?
> The cve numbers in rust std and crates (no including redox os, firefox etc, i can show them too) are a lot.
> Rust std in one year has 8 memory safety cves than all C++ standard library in entire lifespan
Does it? And why is that even relevant? The Linux kernel is not written in C++, it's written in C. It's C code that Rust is aiming to replace in the kernel.
If you think the kernel should also include C++ code, then why not. I'm not a Linux kernel maintainer. You'll need to convince them.
> The worst part like some cves like CVE-2021-31162 has CVSS 9.8 score (https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2021-31162)
> which is worse than Eternal Blue.
So? This certainly seems to show that Rust is still young and slightly immature in parts (which may be a legimitate concern). It doesn't show that the Rust-specific safety features are useless.
> You said i should try to contact people who wrote those code.
No. I said you should try to contact those people *or* people who maintain the kernel and accepted the code for inclusion. They are the people who can give you the explanations you claim to be looking for.
Topic | Posted By | Date |
---|---|---|
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/09 08:56 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | Brendan | 2021/07/09 11:59 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 12:37 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | anon | 2021/07/10 03:14 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 12:40 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | Gabriele Svelto | 2021/07/10 02:59 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 03:42 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | anon | 2021/07/11 05:11 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/12 11:40 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | Foo_ | 2021/07/10 05:56 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 08:59 AM |
Most RWT posters don’t decide what goes into the Linux kernel | Mark Roulo | 2021/07/10 11:55 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | Foo_ | 2021/07/22 10:10 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 09:22 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 09:24 AM |
Déja Vu | Dismissive | 2021/07/10 09:41 AM |
Déja Vu | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 09:47 AM |
Déja Vu | Dismissive | 2021/07/10 09:51 AM |
Déja Vu | Michael S | 2021/07/10 12:11 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | Gabriele Svelto | 2021/07/10 11:51 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 12:32 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | Michael S | 2021/07/10 01:04 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 01:25 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | Gabriele Svelto | 2021/07/10 02:56 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 03:41 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | Rayla | 2021/07/10 04:33 PM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 05:27 PM |
Interesting response... (NT) | Rayla | 2021/07/10 08:02 PM |
perhaps just another lousy AI bot? (NT) | anonymou5 | 2021/07/10 08:33 PM |
perhaps just another lousy AI bot? | dmcq | 2021/07/10 10:26 PM |
perhaps just another lousy AI bot? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 10:56 PM |
perhaps just another lousy AI bot? | dmcq | 2021/07/11 02:29 AM |
perhaps just another lousy AI bot? | anon | 2021/07/11 05:16 AM |
perhaps just another lousy AI bot? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/12 02:56 PM |
perhaps just another lousy AI bot? | Rayla | 2021/07/11 05:13 AM |
perhaps just another lousy AI bot? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/11 10:59 AM |
When did I call you a bot, Kebabbert? (NT) | Rayla | 2021/07/11 07:51 PM |
Alternatives? | Brendan | 2021/07/11 12:54 AM |
Alternatives? | Michael S | 2021/07/11 05:01 AM |
Alternatives? | Brendan | 2021/07/11 05:51 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/11 10:58 AM |
Alternatives? | Gabriele Svelto | 2021/07/12 12:31 AM |
Alternatives? | Michael S | 2021/07/12 02:58 AM |
Alternatives? | anon2 | 2021/07/12 08:08 AM |
Alternatives? | Michael S | 2021/07/12 08:22 AM |
cqwrteur: Keep it polite | David Kanter | 2021/07/13 07:59 AM |
Alternatives? | dmcq | 2021/07/12 08:37 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/12 03:04 PM |
Alternatives? | dmcq | 2021/07/12 03:26 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/13 12:47 AM |
Alternatives? | dmcq | 2021/07/13 05:54 AM |
Alternatives? | Jörn Engel | 2021/07/13 03:53 PM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/17 06:56 AM |
Differences between Rust and C/Go | Gabriele Svelto | 2021/07/14 04:57 AM |
Differences between Rust and C/Go | FrankHB | 2021/07/17 08:47 AM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/12 09:08 AM |
Alternatives? | Gabriele Svelto | 2021/07/14 01:28 PM |
Inappropriate messages removed: cqwrteur | David Kanter | 2021/07/15 09:59 AM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/16 05:43 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/16 11:01 AM |
Alternatives? | Gabriele Svelto | 2021/07/16 12:44 PM |
Type abstraction and kernel programming | FrankHB | 2021/07/17 12:44 AM |
Type abstraction and kernel programming | dmcq | 2021/07/18 03:00 AM |
Type abstraction and kernel programming | dmcq | 2021/07/18 03:36 AM |
Type abstraction and kernel programming | Etienne Lorrain | 2021/07/19 12:03 AM |
Type abstraction and kernel programming | dmcq | 2021/07/19 01:01 AM |
Type abstraction and kernel programming | Anon | 2021/07/19 01:05 AM |
Type abstraction and kernel programming | dmcq | 2021/07/19 02:23 AM |
Type abstraction and kernel programming | Brendan | 2021/07/19 06:05 AM |
Alternatives? | gallier2 | 2021/07/20 03:57 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/20 05:24 AM |
Alternatives? | Michael S | 2021/07/20 09:14 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/20 09:53 AM |
Alternatives? | gallier2 | 2021/07/21 10:44 PM |
Alternatives? | Adrian | 2021/07/20 11:00 AM |
Alternatives? | Brett | 2021/07/20 10:13 PM |
Alternatives? | Michael S | 2021/07/21 01:12 AM |
Alternatives? | dmcq | 2021/07/22 11:58 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/21 07:58 AM |
Alternatives? | Brendan | 2021/07/12 01:34 AM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/12 09:57 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/12 11:55 AM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/12 08:44 PM |
Alternatives? | Brendan | 2021/07/12 07:52 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/12 10:05 PM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/12 10:42 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/12 11:42 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/12 11:44 PM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/13 07:32 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/13 08:36 PM |
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Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/13 09:02 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/13 09:18 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/13 08:49 PM |
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Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/13 10:31 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/13 11:30 PM |
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Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 01:22 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/14 02:05 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 02:11 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/14 03:16 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 06:06 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/14 07:20 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 07:51 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/14 11:33 AM |
Alternatives? | Gabriele Svelto | 2021/07/14 12:19 PM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/16 06:07 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/13 11:33 PM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/14 12:57 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 01:21 AM |
Alternatives? | dmcq | 2021/07/14 02:06 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 02:50 AM |
Alternatives? | ⚛ | 2021/07/15 07:33 AM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/16 06:13 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/13 11:39 PM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/14 01:08 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 01:20 AM |
Alternatives? | dmcq | 2021/07/14 01:46 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 01:52 AM |
Alternatives? | dmcq | 2021/07/14 09:13 AM |
Alternatives? | dmcq | 2021/07/14 09:23 AM |
Dealing with memory errors | Brendan | 2021/07/14 11:50 AM |
Dealing with memory errors | dmcq | 2021/07/14 03:27 PM |
Dealing with memory errors | Brendan | 2021/07/14 03:55 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 02:12 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/14 03:16 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 05:55 AM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/16 06:27 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 01:38 AM |
Alternatives? | anon | 2021/07/14 02:50 AM |
Stop feeding that troll | none | 2021/07/14 03:13 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 06:39 AM |
Alternatives? | Brendan | 2021/07/14 11:15 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/14 03:19 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 06:12 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/14 07:17 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 07:47 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/14 12:00 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 12:44 PM |
Alternatives? | ⚛ | 2021/07/15 09:36 AM |
Alternatives? | Gabriele Svelto | 2021/07/14 12:26 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 12:46 PM |
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Alternatives? | ⚛ | 2021/07/15 07:37 AM |
Alternatives? | Brendan | 2021/07/15 10:21 AM |
Alternatives? | Anon | 2021/07/15 12:15 PM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/16 06:27 AM |
Alternatives? | None | 2021/07/14 01:50 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 01:54 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 01:55 AM |
Alternatives? | Rayla | 2021/07/14 04:47 AM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/14 05:54 AM |
Alternatives? | Gabriele Svelto | 2021/07/14 12:43 PM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/12 11:47 PM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/12 11:05 PM |
Alternatives? | Michael S | 2021/07/13 12:01 AM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/13 12:25 AM |
Alternatives? | Doug S | 2021/07/12 11:29 PM |
Alternatives? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/12 11:48 PM |
Alternatives? | FrankHB | 2021/07/13 12:07 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | ⚛ | 2021/07/12 05:27 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | Anon | 2021/07/12 08:46 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | Etienne Lorrain | 2021/07/13 01:00 AM |
Is unsafe hell truly good for linux kernel in the future? | cqwrteur | 2021/07/10 12:38 PM |