By: Anon (no.delete@this.thanks.com), September 13, 2021 3:28 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Andrei F (andrei.delete@this.anandtech.com) on September 13, 2021 2:02 am wrote:
> David Kanter (dkanter.delete@this.realworldtech.com) on September 12, 2021 10:58 pm wrote:
> > > One of the biggest issues that the traditional companies is that they have not understood power efficient
> > > DVFS. Years ago, Intel engineers lambasted schemes like big.LITTLE because it was "not hardware controlled"
> > > - but you precisely do not want ultra-fine grained DVFS like that for several reasons.
> >
> > >In battery powered
> > > devices the whole point of DVFS was to avoid the higher
> > > performance states and voltages as much as possible,
> > > and what matters here is the delivery of performance within a unit of user experience, essentially a 16ms
> > > or 8ms frame, which is AGES.
> >
> > Isn't the point to deliver max perf with min energy?
> >
> > >The act of frequency and voltage change itself takes up quite a bit of energy
> > > and you literally do not want to do it that fast because it actually would be more efficient to smooth out
> > > performance over the duration of your frame at a lower state, or clock/power-gate at smaller idle periods
> > > rather than to DVFS down.
> >
> > That depends on several things:
> >
> > 1. Latency of adjusting voltage
> > 2. Latency of adjusting the clock
> > 3. Penalties associated with changing V or F
> >
> > For a system with a 120MHz FIVR, you can adjust voltage pretty quickly compared to that 8ms period.
> >
> > It is quite possible to change clocks in a small number of cycles, depending on your clocking architecture.
> >
> > Again - if you look at an 8ms period, that's 24M clock cycles.
> > I think burning around 1-2% of those on voltage
> > and frequency transition shouldn't be an issue compared to possible gains, although this is a guess.
> >
> > One issue is that I suspect many designs impose long penalties for
> > voltage/clock transitions. But that's a choice, not a limitation.
> >
> > David
> > Isn't the point to deliver max perf with min energy?
> The point is that your window of user experience is 16/8ms. If the workload completes
> interactively to fill that "QoS" at the current frequency without going over a utilisation
> threshold in that sliding window, you *do not want to go any higher*.
> So your 120MHz FIVR is completely and utterly pointless. You would be wasting energy at higher
> voltages for no gain in user performance. Fmax should only every be reached and triggered after
> continuous load of 2-3x of user experience window - current mobile phones do that in around 40-50ms,
> anything faster than that is waste of energy and battery life. These are not HW limitations, but
> learning the hard way what the most efficient way to design battery powered DVFS logic.

Intel historic DVFS and mobile of course are trying to do two very different things.
DVFS was historically trying to maximise performance under a thermal envelope, with of course the benefit of being able to operate at lower power levels, almost as a side effect (a side effect that became more valuable with time..)

In phones, minimising power without impacting user experience (or perhaps just minimising impact..) is far FAR more important than squeezing the last 1% performance..

Now, of course we are seeing these two demands approach each other from opposite directions - total performance in phones is becoming (somewhat) more important (and in ARM based non phone use even more so), While Intel etal are caring more and more about total power consumption, due to mobile use and energy spends.

Really no one should be surprised as ARM, etc add more hardware support, and Intel adopt some of the better optimisations that have been heavily tuned for phones.

Its really not that different to scheduling - there is almost by definition no perfect solution, and many workable solutions - all with tradeoffs - the state of the art will be a moving target.

Really we should celebrate situations where good ideas from either 'side' manages to make it to the other despite of NIH and IP restrictions. Focusing too much on histrionics of sides throwing mud at their competitors and (probably intentionally) ignoring the real reason things were done differently doesnt really achieve much.
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TopicPosted ByDate
alder lake.inteluser2021/09/10 01:52 AM
  alder lake.Andrei F2021/09/10 09:31 AM
    alder lake.Andrey2021/09/10 09:38 AM
      alder lake.rwessel2021/09/10 11:18 AM
      alder lake.Andrei F2021/09/10 12:49 PM
        alder lake.Andrey2021/09/10 04:12 PM
          alder lake.David Hess2021/09/10 07:39 PM
            alder lake.Andrey2021/09/11 12:28 AM
        alder lake.---2021/09/10 05:24 PM
          alder lake.Andrei F2021/09/12 01:09 AM
            DVFSDavid Kanter2021/09/12 09:58 PM
              DVFSAndrei F2021/09/13 01:02 AM
                DVFSAnon2021/09/13 03:28 AM
                DVFSJukka Larja2021/09/13 05:35 AM
                  DVFSAndrei F2021/09/14 12:07 AM
                    DVFSJukka Larja2021/09/14 04:11 AM
                      DVFSAndrei F2021/09/14 07:55 AM
                        DVFSJukka Larja2021/09/14 10:23 AM
                DVFS---2021/09/13 10:19 AM
                  DVFSDoug S2021/09/13 10:57 AM
                    DVFSDavid Hess2021/09/13 11:32 AM
                    DVFS---2021/09/13 01:06 PM
                      DVFSDavid Hess2021/09/13 02:21 PM
                    DVFSDavid Kanter2021/09/15 03:05 PM
                  DVFSDavid Hess2021/09/13 11:46 AM
                  DVFSJukka Larja2021/09/14 04:35 AM
                Quick shutdown?David Kanter2021/09/15 10:46 AM
                  Quick shutdown?Andrei F2021/09/16 07:12 AM
                    Quick shutdown?David Kanter2021/09/16 11:04 AM
                      Quick shutdown?Andrei F2021/09/17 01:35 AM
                        Quick shutdown?Andrei F2021/09/17 01:38 AM
            and weren't 'they' right?Daniel B2021/09/13 04:20 AM
              and weren't 'they' right?Andrei F2021/09/13 04:51 AM
                and weren't 'they' right?Daniel B2021/09/13 06:29 AM
              and weren't 'they' right?anon2021/09/13 05:07 AM
                and weren't 'they' right?Jukka Larja2021/09/13 05:26 AM
                  and weren't 'they' right?anon2021/09/13 11:37 PM
              Alder Lake has no little coresHeikki Kultala2021/09/13 06:33 AM
                Alder Lake has no little coresMichael S2021/09/13 07:33 AM
                  Alder Lake has no little coresme2021/09/13 10:45 AM
                  Alder Lake has no little coresHeikki Kultala2021/09/13 01:49 PM
                    Alder Lake has no little coresanon2021/09/13 11:42 PM
                why stop at two core sizes?hobold2021/09/14 05:47 AM
                  Memory caches did this, right?Mark Roulo2021/09/14 02:51 PM
                    Memory caches did this, right?Brett2021/09/14 07:17 PM
                      Memory caches did this, right?Kevin G2021/09/16 03:10 PM
                  Large reorder buffers (L1+L2)2021/09/15 11:24 AM
                    Large reorder buffers (L1+L2)hobold2021/09/15 12:06 PM
                Alder Lake has no little coresAdrian2021/09/14 08:33 AM
              and weren't 'they' right?David Hess2021/09/13 12:00 PM
                Battery vs PerformanceMark Roulo2021/09/13 12:18 PM
                  Battery vs PerformanceDoug S2021/09/13 02:05 PM
                    Battery vs PerformanceDavid Hess2021/09/13 02:28 PM
                      Battery vs Performance---2021/09/13 05:08 PM
                      Battery vs Performance---2021/09/13 05:08 PM
                      Battery vs PerformanceDoug S2021/09/13 08:53 PM
                    Battery vs PerformanceAnon2021/09/14 06:42 AM
                and weren't 'they' right?Daniel B2021/09/13 12:57 PM
                  and weren't 'they' right?David Hess2021/09/13 02:11 PM
                    and weren't 'they' right?---2021/09/13 02:38 PM
                  and weren't 'they' right?---2021/09/13 02:32 PM
                and weren't 'they' right?Brendan2021/09/14 03:30 AM
                  and weren't 'they' right?Jukka Larja2021/09/14 04:31 AM
              and weren't 'they' right?Etienne Lorrain2021/09/14 12:29 AM
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