new cost structure

By: David Kanter (, September 27, 2021 10:04 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Moritz (better.delete@this.not.tell) on September 27, 2021 4:30 am wrote:
> Mark Roulo ( on September 22, 2021 3:40 pm wrote:
> > You can *RUN* it but you don't get the price premium that you
> > get when it is new. TSMC still runs (as an example) 65nm fabs.
> > But the big money is made when the fab is shiny and new.
> ATM it would seem that anyone with any fab can find a product that will match the
> process and sell. Profit is more of a productivity question than one of novelty.
> > Part
> > of Global Foundry's problem was that it kept being late to
> > each node relative to TSMC and so couldn't charge the new-ness
> > premium.
> I see how that makes it unprofitable in a world of progress
> as in decrease in cost per transistor with every new node and over
> time. That is my point, that is not the world we live in anymore.

Actually we still do live in that world. It's just that the cost/transistor improvements are much smaller. It's also possible that EUV will help get back on track.

Generally N+1 node will be better than N for most applications. We've seen some situations where that isn't true (notably Intel desktops and initial 14nm and 10nm), but I suspect if you were to compare N and N+1 within a process flavor (e.g., mobile oriented) it would be strictly better.

> A 320mm^2 die will use less power, but it need not be cheaper or higher performing than a 450mm^2
> die. The fab can run the process longer because the new node is not attracting mid-range or mass
> product. It used to be that only a small die filled with logic could be fit in-between the
> defects
but in the age of multicore binning and on-die SRAM monsters rules have changed.
> The trend to stack ICs has not made them smaller, it only increased the manufacturing capacity.
> It must have been obvious that we would need more wafer
> starts as fabs slowed to make more transistors per wafer.

I think cost effective heterogeneous integration will change the rules of the game a lot!

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TopicPosted ByDate
fab capacity or Why are there no GPUs (by Nvidia) to be had?Moritz2021/09/22 06:40 AM
  fab capacity or Why are there no GPUs (by Nvidia) to be had?none2021/09/22 07:46 AM
    fab capacity or Why are there no GPUs (by Nvidia) to be had?me2021/09/22 12:27 PM
      fab capacity or Why are there no GPUs (by Nvidia) to be had?Captain Obvious2021/09/23 11:16 AM
  fab capacity or Why are there no GPUs (by Nvidia) to be had?Mark Roulo2021/09/22 12:37 PM
    fab depreciatonMoritz2021/09/22 02:09 PM
      fab depreciatonMark Roulo2021/09/22 03:40 PM
        fab depreciatonme2021/09/25 11:40 AM
        new cost structureMoritz2021/09/27 04:30 AM
          new cost structureDavid Kanter2021/09/27 10:04 AM
            new cost structure and integrationMoritz2021/09/28 03:04 AM
              new cost structure and integrationDoug S2021/09/28 07:53 AM
                new cost structure and integrationMoritz2021/09/28 09:55 AM
              new cost structure and integrationGroo2021/09/29 07:45 AM
    fab capacity or Why are there no GPUs (by Nvidia) to be had?James2021/09/23 01:52 AM
      mining, blameMoritz2021/09/23 09:30 AM
      fake PR stuntCaptain Obvious2021/09/23 11:30 AM
        fake PR stuntKester L2021/09/23 02:17 PM
          NVidia: TSMC and SamsungMark Roulo2021/09/23 05:43 PM
        fake PR stuntJames2021/09/24 01:34 AM
  Chinese central bank banned all crypto transactions. (NT)Michael S2021/09/24 06:16 AM
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