By: anon2 (anon.delete@this.anon.com), June 2, 2022 4:30 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Doug S (foo.delete@this.bar.bar) on June 2, 2022 11:10 am wrote:
> Heikki Kultala (heikk.i.kultal.a.delete@this.gmail.com) on June 2, 2022 10:45 am wrote:
> > Anon (no.delete@this.spam.com) on June 2, 2022 12:35 am wrote:
> > > Eric Fink (eric.delete@this.anon.com) on June 2, 2022 12:20 am wrote:
> > > > I would agree with everything you said, but there is still the fact that M1 — while prioritising
> > > > power consumption — is essentially reaching identical performance as the x86 chips. Sure, binned
> > > > desktop Alder Lake is marginally faster (~20% , but it also pays a significant ~5x penalty in power
> > > > consumption to get at most ~20% higher ST performance. So I am not sure about the accuracy of the statement
> > > > that Apple prioritises power over performance — kind of seems to me that Apple gets both.
> > >
> > > Apple is using TSMC 5nm while Intel is using 10nm which they call 7nm
> >
> > Totally wrong.
> >
> > Apple is using TSMC ~15nm process which TSMC calls "N5". N5 is just a name.
> >
> > Intel is using ~18nm process which they originally marketed as "10nm"
> > and now call it "Intel 7". Those 10 and 7 are only names.
> >
> > > and AMD uses TSMC's 7nm, and both Intel Intel and AMD supports SMT.
> >
> > Wrong. AMD uses TSMC's 20nm process which TSMC calls "N7". THis N7 is only a name.
> >
> > And SMT has NOTHING to do with single-thread performance.
> >
> > There is no 7 nm or 5nm anywhere.
> >
>
>
> Where are you getting these claims about "~18nm" and "20nm" processes?
> Those claims are no more real than "5nm" or "7nm".
>
> The real figure of merit is transistor density,
Actually not entirely. Density is important, but if you also need to be able to wire and power the transistors. As you say real products don't use maximum density, they might have 70-80% utilization.
So metal stack resources and performance, transistor performance and energy usage, design rules, cell design (which may come from customer rather than foundry itself) etc is all important. Each of them has many components and all inter related.
> Heikki Kultala (heikk.i.kultal.a.delete@this.gmail.com) on June 2, 2022 10:45 am wrote:
> > Anon (no.delete@this.spam.com) on June 2, 2022 12:35 am wrote:
> > > Eric Fink (eric.delete@this.anon.com) on June 2, 2022 12:20 am wrote:
> > > > I would agree with everything you said, but there is still the fact that M1 — while prioritising
> > > > power consumption — is essentially reaching identical performance as the x86 chips. Sure, binned
> > > > desktop Alder Lake is marginally faster (~20% , but it also pays a significant ~5x penalty in power
> > > > consumption to get at most ~20% higher ST performance. So I am not sure about the accuracy of the statement
> > > > that Apple prioritises power over performance — kind of seems to me that Apple gets both.
> > >
> > > Apple is using TSMC 5nm while Intel is using 10nm which they call 7nm
> >
> > Totally wrong.
> >
> > Apple is using TSMC ~15nm process which TSMC calls "N5". N5 is just a name.
> >
> > Intel is using ~18nm process which they originally marketed as "10nm"
> > and now call it "Intel 7". Those 10 and 7 are only names.
> >
> > > and AMD uses TSMC's 7nm, and both Intel Intel and AMD supports SMT.
> >
> > Wrong. AMD uses TSMC's 20nm process which TSMC calls "N7". THis N7 is only a name.
> >
> > And SMT has NOTHING to do with single-thread performance.
> >
> > There is no 7 nm or 5nm anywhere.
> >
>
>
> Where are you getting these claims about "~18nm" and "20nm" processes?
> Those claims are no more real than "5nm" or "7nm".
>
> The real figure of merit is transistor density,
Actually not entirely. Density is important, but if you also need to be able to wire and power the transistors. As you say real products don't use maximum density, they might have 70-80% utilization.
So metal stack resources and performance, transistor performance and energy usage, design rules, cell design (which may come from customer rather than foundry itself) etc is all important. Each of them has many components and all inter related.