Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]

By: Michael S (already5chosen.delete@this.yahoo.com), June 30, 2022 2:17 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Groo (charlie.delete@this.semiaccurate.com) on June 30, 2022 12:56 pm wrote:
> ⚛ (0xe2.0x9a.0x9b.delete@this.gmail.com) on June 30, 2022 12:08 am wrote:
>
> > It is possible to achieve program safety of any complexity purely in software, without any special hardware
> > support for the safety guaranties, in the design of a secure operating system. Thus, from a theoretical
> > viewpoint, it is completely unnecessary to implement any kind of security feature directly in hardware
> > (hardware support for capabilities ... or even hardware support for virtual memory protection).
> >
> > The article's claim that "linear address space as a concept is unsafe at any speed" is false, because
> > theory guarantees that there always exists a particular minimum "speed" (i.e: minimum cost, minimum
> > slowdown) upwards of which the concept of a linear address
> > space can be used to implement a safety guarantee
> > of any particular complexity, via mechanisms implemented purely in software. Obviously, the minimum
> > "speed" (i.e: cost, slowdown) depends on the complexity/definition of the safety features.
> >
>
> Can you clarify something for me? When you say that safety is achievable purely in software, do you assume
> that the entire software stack is controlled by a friendly party, IE the owner? If not, does your supposition
> hold for someone running an intentionally malicious program on top of your fortress of security?
>

Poul-Henning Kamp actually mentioned one such example (IBM i) in the article without realizing that it's actually a counter-example to his claim.

> The second bit is about side channels. Does your correct software ideal take into account misusing correct
> and non-flawed behavior in the ways of modern side channel attacks? If you have a rock solid software stack
> and someone can pull the encryption keys to the disk with a side channel, is it still 'safe'?
>


Side channels are sexy.
But they a hardly a major threat for 99% of us.
To hard to launch for attacker, to many easier ways are readily available.

> I am not saying you are wrong, just wondering if you took these and related scenarios into account when you
> claimed things could be solved in software. For the record, my view is that things can be made 'secure' at most
> levels against known attack vectors but currently unknown or unexpected vectors are a different issue.
>
> -Charlie
>

< Previous Post in ThreadNext Post in Thread >
TopicPosted ByDate
Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Kester L2022/06/29 01:49 PM
  Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Rayla2022/06/29 02:14 PM
    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Kester L2022/06/29 02:43 PM
      Not just worse-is-betterMark Roulo2022/06/29 03:21 PM
        Not just worse-is-better---2022/06/29 07:07 PM
  Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]2022/06/30 12:08 AM
    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Groo2022/06/30 12:56 PM
      Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Michael S2022/06/30 02:17 PM
  Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Eric Fink2022/06/30 01:43 AM
  Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]dmcq2022/06/30 03:17 AM
  Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/06/30 05:36 AM
    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]anonymou52022/06/30 07:28 AM
      Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Anon42022/06/30 04:37 PM
        Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]anonymou52022/06/30 06:19 PM
          Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]dmcq2022/07/01 04:16 AM
            Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]anonymou52022/07/01 05:40 AM
              Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]dmcq2022/07/01 06:11 AM
                Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]anonymou52022/07/01 08:09 AM
              Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]dmcq2022/07/01 06:11 AM
                Why the duplicates?dmcq2022/07/01 06:18 AM
              Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]2022/07/01 10:41 PM
    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Foo_2022/06/30 07:43 AM
      Fragmentation: Both Size and LifetimeMark Roulo2022/06/30 08:25 AM
        Fragmentation: Both Size and Lifetime2022/06/30 10:09 AM
          Fragmentation: Both Size and Lifetimedmcq2022/06/30 11:12 AM
          Fragmentation: Both Size and LifetimeBrendan2022/06/30 04:08 PM
            Fragmentation: Both Size and Lifetime2022/07/02 03:12 AM
              Fragmentation: Both Size and LifetimeBrendan2022/07/02 01:56 PM
                Fragmentation: Both Size and Lifetime2022/07/04 05:34 AM
                  Fragmentation: Both Size and LifetimeBrendan2022/07/04 06:33 AM
                    Fragmentation: Both Size and Lifetime2022/07/04 07:35 AM
                      Fragmentation: Both Size and LifetimeBrendan2022/07/04 04:21 PM
                    Atom is just living at the Dunning-Krueger peakHeikki Kultala2022/07/04 09:26 AM
                      Atom is just living at the Dunning-Krueger peak2022/07/04 09:57 AM
      Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/06/30 08:31 AM
        Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Foo_2022/06/30 09:07 AM
          Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/06/30 09:43 AM
            Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Foo_2022/07/01 03:21 AM
              Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/01 09:58 PM
                Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Foo_2022/07/03 02:45 AM
                  Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/03 10:04 PM
                    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]ananon2022/07/04 02:35 AM
                    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Foo_2022/07/04 03:11 AM
                      Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/05 01:36 AM
                    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]2022/07/04 04:18 AM
                    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]TAG2022/07/04 07:50 AM
                    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Brendan2022/07/04 04:54 PM
                      Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Brendan2022/07/04 05:05 PM
                      Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/05 02:18 AM
                        Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Brendan2022/07/06 05:16 PM
                          Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/07 12:33 AM
        Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]2022/06/30 10:40 AM
    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]---2022/06/30 08:28 AM
      Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Michael S2022/06/30 01:00 PM
    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Jörn Engel2022/06/30 05:34 PM
      Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/01 12:55 AM
        Sorry, typo correctionAdrian2022/07/01 01:04 AM
        Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]2022/07/01 04:01 AM
          Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/01 11:00 PM
            Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]rwessel2022/07/02 07:16 AM
        Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Jörn Engel2022/07/01 09:40 AM
          Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/01 11:15 PM
  Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Brendan2022/06/30 11:09 AM
    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]dmcq2022/06/30 11:20 AM
      Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Brendan2022/06/30 03:52 PM
        Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]dmcq2022/07/01 06:06 AM
          Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Brendan2022/07/01 01:24 PM
            Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]rwessel2022/07/01 08:55 PM
  Linear Address Spaces - Free lunch?Björn Ragnar Björnsson2022/07/02 06:44 PM
    Linear Address Spaces - Free lunch?dmcq2022/07/03 04:30 AM
      Linear Address Spaces - Free lunch?Björn Ragnar Björnsson2022/07/03 04:50 PM
  Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Paul A. Clayton2022/07/18 07:49 AM
    Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/18 10:21 AM
      Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Brendan2022/07/18 03:11 PM
        Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]anon22022/07/18 04:54 PM
          Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/18 10:22 PM
            Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Michael S2022/07/19 01:00 AM
              Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/19 05:50 AM
        Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Adrian2022/07/18 11:02 PM
          Linear Address Spaces: Unsafe at any speed [article]Brendan2022/07/19 08:29 PM
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