You lost.

Article: A Preview of Intel's Bensley Platform (Part II)
By: Bill Todd (billtodd.delete@this.metrocast.net), December 4, 2005 1:54 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Ray (a@b.c) on 12/4/05 wrote:
---------------------------
>Bill Todd (billtodd@metrocast.net) on 12/3/05 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>Ray (a@b.c) on 12/3/05 wrote:
>>
>>...
>>
>>>Hmm. I am not an American
>>
>>Ah - that may explain whyc you don't know what you're talking about: America today
>>is not what you seem to think it is.
>
>Heh. I think you are making a few assumptions about my level of contact with the USA.

Perhaps I'm more making assumptions about the degree to which you understand, say, the significant reductions in civil liberties which we used to take almost for granted. People without a similar largely-unbroken history of such liberties may be unlikely to be able to appreciate how important the loss of them may seem. I think it was Ben Franklin who observed that those who are willing to trade liberty for security deserve neither: you, of course, are free to take issue with that position, but should recognize that it characterizes what at least used to be American ideals pretty well.

Nor may people without a similar history of something approaching real reverence for their country's basic ideals be likely to understand the shock and abhorrence which seeing them completely overturned - from within - can bring.

My impression is that you take what you consider to be a pragmatic view of the use of force, and tend to consider strength a stabilizing influence which is worth the loss of some liberty (and/or morality, in an end-justifies-the-means manner). The logical extreme of such a philosophy is someone like Joseph Stalin, I suspect: regardless of the purity of one's motives in getting there, that slope once embarked upon is a steep and slippery one, and one which traditionally Americans have viewed with extreme suspicion save in full-fledged wartime (not just the facade currently purporting to be a 'war on terrorism', and not just an elective misadventure against a far weaker victim).

...

>(Oh, and war has been turned against me. My side lost.)

My point, of course, was that you might feel differently about America's promiscuous use of force if it (not just *anyone's* force) was used against a cause you believed in, rather than merely against someone you felt 'deserved it' (apparently regardless of the adverse effects upon those you seem to feel qualified to judge are better off despite the devastation of their country and its infrastructure).

I didn't think we'd reach anything resembling agreement, but did feel obligated to make the attempt: general failure to make such attempts early-on (in part because it seemed so inconceivable that Dubya would so thoroughly thumb his nose at the rest of the world and barge in anyway: even the U.S. population was against it until the troops had been moved into position and 'committed', at which point it seemed to become considered necessary to 'support them') is what got us into this mess in the first place.

- bill
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TopicPosted ByDate
Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDavid Kanter2005/11/29 01:45 AM
  Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineTemp2005/11/29 06:25 AM
    Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDavid Kanter2005/11/29 11:55 AM
      Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineTemp2005/11/29 02:29 PM
        Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) Onlinerwessel2005/11/29 02:53 PM
    Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDean Kent2005/11/29 12:01 PM
      Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineWilliam Campbell2005/11/29 12:48 PM
        Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDavid Kanter2005/11/29 01:37 PM
          Well said! (NT)savantu2005/11/29 01:44 PM
          Peer reviewWilliam Campbell2005/11/29 04:12 PM
            To clarify intentWilliam Campbell2005/11/29 04:19 PM
            Peer reviewDavid Kanter2005/11/29 04:21 PM
              Peer reviewWilliam Campbell2005/11/29 06:13 PM
                Peer reviewnick2005/11/29 11:09 PM
                  Peer reviewWilliam Campbell2005/11/30 12:39 AM
                    Peer reviewDavid Kanter2005/11/30 01:21 AM
                Peer reviewDavid Kanter2005/11/29 11:25 PM
                  Yes please (NT)William Campbell2005/11/30 12:28 AM
                    Yes please (NT)David Kanter2005/11/30 06:19 PM
                      Thank youWilliam Campbell2005/11/30 08:51 PM
                        Thank youDavid Kanter2005/11/30 10:29 PM
            Peer reviewDean Kent2005/11/29 07:12 PM
              Peer reviewWilliam Campbell2005/11/29 07:50 PM
                Peer reviewDean Kent2005/11/30 05:16 AM
                  Peer reviewWilliam Campbell2005/11/30 08:49 PM
                    Peer reviewTemp2005/12/01 03:02 AM
                      Peer reviewWilliam Campbell2005/12/01 04:54 AM
                        Peer reviewTemp2005/12/01 05:11 AM
                  Peer reviewTemp2005/12/01 03:03 AM
                    Peer reviewDean Kent2005/12/01 07:55 AM
                      Peer reviewBill Todd2005/12/01 08:26 PM
                        Peer reviewDavid Kanter2005/12/01 09:52 PM
                          Peer reviewBill Todd2005/12/01 10:14 PM
                            Peer reviewDavid Kanter2005/12/01 11:04 PM
                              Peer reviewBill Todd2005/12/02 12:13 AM
                            Peer reviewDean Kent2005/12/02 07:02 AM
                              You lost this one.Ray2005/12/02 11:54 AM
                                You lost.tecate2005/12/02 02:55 PM
                                  I second that (NT)savantu2005/12/02 03:22 PM
                                  I wasn't in the game.Ray2005/12/02 04:19 PM
                                    I wasn't in the game.Dean Kent2005/12/02 10:20 PM
                                  You lost.Bill Todd2005/12/02 05:28 PM
                                    You lost.Anonymous2005/12/02 08:27 PM
                                      You lost.Bill Todd2005/12/02 08:56 PM
                                        You lost.Dean Kent2005/12/02 10:37 PM
                                          You lost.Bill Todd2005/12/03 12:08 AM
                                            All about the contextDavid Kanter2005/12/03 02:27 PM
                                              All about the contextBill Todd2005/12/03 02:51 PM
                                                All about the contextDavid Kanter2005/12/03 04:29 PM
                                    You lost.Ray2005/12/02 09:15 PM
                                      You lost.Bill Todd2005/12/02 10:00 PM
                                        You lost.Ray2005/12/02 11:09 PM
                                        You lost.anonymous2005/12/03 02:42 AM
                                          You lost.Bill Todd2005/12/03 02:45 PM
                                            Well...David Kanter2005/12/03 03:51 PM
                                            You lost.Ray2005/12/03 05:54 PM
                                              Bill is a self loathing AmericanNIKOLAS2005/12/03 06:25 PM
                                                Bill is a self loathing AmericanBill Todd2005/12/03 09:40 PM
                                                  Bill is a self loathing AmericanBill Todd2005/12/03 09:48 PM
                                                Bill is a self loathing AmericanDavid Kanter2005/12/03 09:48 PM
                                                  Bill is a self loathing AmericanBill Todd2005/12/03 11:17 PM
                                                    Bill is a self loathing AmericanDavid Kanter2005/12/04 12:37 AM
                                                      Bill is a self loathing AmericanBill Todd2005/12/04 01:19 AM
                                                        This whole thread is a symptom...Dean Kent2005/12/04 09:43 AM
                                                          This whole thread is a symptom...tecate2005/12/04 01:17 PM
                                                            This whole thread is a symptom...mas2005/12/04 02:02 PM
                                                              This whole thread is a symptom...tecate2005/12/05 06:21 AM
                                                          This whole thread is a symptom...tecate2005/12/04 01:18 PM
                                                          ...Temp2005/12/04 03:38 PM
                                                            ...Dean Kent2005/12/04 05:25 PM
                                                              Once more, alasTemp2005/12/05 02:23 AM
                                                                Once more, alasDean Kent2005/12/05 08:23 AM
                                                                  ByeTemp2005/12/05 10:47 AM
                                                                  Once more, alasBill Todd2005/12/05 10:58 AM
                                                              Sungard as a benchmarkTemp2005/12/05 03:42 AM
                                                                Sungard as a benchmarkDean Kent2005/12/05 10:06 AM
                                                                Sungard as a benchmarkDavid Kanter2005/12/05 08:08 PM
                                                                  Sungard as a benchmarkTemp2005/12/06 01:45 AM
                                                                    More info about SungardTemp2005/12/06 03:20 PM
                                                                      More info about SungardDavid Kanter2005/12/06 04:25 PM
                                                                        More info about SungardTemp2005/12/07 12:40 AM
                                                                        More info about SungardDean Kent2005/12/07 07:52 AM
                                                                      More info about SungardDean Kent2005/12/06 07:22 PM
                                                          This whole thread is a symptom...Bill Todd2005/12/04 09:31 PM
                                                            This whole thread is a symptom...Dean Kent2005/12/04 09:51 PM
                                              You lost.Bill Todd2005/12/03 11:14 PM
                                                You lost.Ray2005/12/04 01:06 AM
                                                  You lost.Bill Todd2005/12/04 01:54 AM
                                                    Enough with the politics... (NT)David Kanter2005/12/04 03:41 AM
                                            You lost.anonymous2005/12/04 04:03 AM
                                              Well Said! (NT)Anonymous2005/12/04 04:48 AM
                                              You lost.savantu2005/12/04 06:47 AM
                                              You lost.Bill Todd2005/12/04 09:39 PM
                                                You lost.anonymous2005/12/05 02:51 AM
                                You lost this one.Dean Kent2005/12/02 09:41 PM
                                  You lost this one.Leonov2005/12/03 12:55 AM
                                    You lost this one.tecate2005/12/03 05:27 AM
                                      You lost this one.Leonov2005/12/03 06:33 AM
                                        You lost this one.savantu2005/12/03 10:19 AM
                                          You lost this one.Leonov2005/12/03 12:19 PM
                                        For god sake.Anonymous2005/12/04 04:28 AM
                                          It's sadsav2005/12/04 06:43 AM
                                            It's sadmas2005/12/04 07:09 AM
                                              It's sadMichael S2005/12/04 07:33 AM
                                              PerfectNo one you'd know2005/12/04 10:52 AM
                                                Perfectmas2005/12/04 12:32 PM
                                                  PerfectDean Kent2005/12/04 12:50 PM
                                                    Perfectmas2005/12/04 01:16 PM
                                                      PerfectDean Kent2005/12/04 04:22 PM
                                                        Posts deleted, topic not open for discussionDavid Kanter2005/12/05 02:05 PM
                                                          Posts deleted, topic not open for discussionKeith Fiske2005/12/05 05:03 PM
                                              This will not be toleratedDavid Kanter2005/12/04 04:32 PM
                                          For god sake.Leonov2005/12/05 07:10 AM
                                            Back on track...Dean Kent2005/12/05 12:35 PM
                                              Back on track...Leonov2005/12/06 03:08 AM
                                  You lost this one.Temp2005/12/03 04:16 AM
                        Peer reviewDean Kent2005/12/02 06:22 AM
                          Peer reviewTemp2005/12/02 12:01 PM
      Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) Onlinean2005/11/29 01:17 PM
        Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDavid Kanter2005/11/29 02:17 PM
          Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) Onlinean2005/11/30 07:52 AM
            Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDavid Kanter2005/11/30 10:42 PM
        Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDean Kent2005/11/29 04:11 PM
        Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) Onlineanonymous2005/11/29 05:38 PM
          It's calledWilliam Campbell2005/11/29 06:17 PM
      Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineTemp2005/11/29 02:41 PM
        Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDavid Kanter2005/11/29 03:02 PM
        Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDean Kent2005/11/29 07:41 PM
  2 small nitpicksan2005/11/29 02:03 PM
    2 small nitpicksDaniel Bizó2005/11/29 03:27 PM
      2 small nitpicksan2005/11/30 07:40 AM
        2 small nitpicksDaniel Bizó2005/11/30 11:17 AM
          2 small nitpicksan2005/11/30 12:30 PM
            2 small nitpicksDavid Kanter2005/11/30 02:32 PM
              2 small nitpicksan2005/11/30 02:49 PM
  Minor Comment about CineBenchRakesh Malik2005/11/29 02:22 PM
  Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlinePiedPiper2005/11/29 08:04 PM
    Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlinePiedPiper2005/11/29 08:08 PM
      Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDavid Kanter2005/11/30 02:05 AM
        Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlinePiedPiper2005/11/30 07:58 PM
          Bensley Platform Preview (Part II) OnlineDavid Kanter2005/12/01 01:45 AM
  Why no 64-bit tests?PiedPiper2005/11/29 08:37 PM
    Why no 64-bit tests?David Kanter2005/11/30 02:07 AM
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