By: rwessel (robertwessel.delete@this.yahoo.com), May 16, 2006 11:31 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds@osdl.org) on 5/15/06 wrote:
---------------------------
>mas (mas769@hotmail.com) on 5/15/06 wrote:
>>
>>Don't know if you saw Tanenbaum's latest defence of
>>microkernels but here it is if not.
>
>I think he - and even more so Shapiro - kind of end up
>discussing past the point.
>
>Claiming that "embedded" OS's are secure, for example,
>is laughable. The whole point of an embedded system is
>that it doesn't even allow (much less support) the
>huge majority of things that make security hard.
>
>Shapiro (and to some degree Tanenbaum) also makes the
>mistake of equating different address spaces with the
>notion of modularity. They have nothing to do with each
>other. You can be modular without using hardware to enforce
>it, and you can generate a horribly messy system where
>two processes are intimately aware of how each other works
>even if they are separated by MMU boundaries.
So how do you feel about microkernel-ish single address space systems? Obviously the two are separate concepts, but it's always struck me that they'd work well together. You get lot's of little protection domains, but still allow easy sharing when needed.
Obviously this is a somewhat theoretical question since most current hardware has, at best, mediocre support for SAS systems.
---------------------------
>mas (mas769@hotmail.com) on 5/15/06 wrote:
>>
>>Don't know if you saw Tanenbaum's latest defence of
>>microkernels but here it is if not.
>
>I think he - and even more so Shapiro - kind of end up
>discussing past the point.
>
>Claiming that "embedded" OS's are secure, for example,
>is laughable. The whole point of an embedded system is
>that it doesn't even allow (much less support) the
>huge majority of things that make security hard.
>
>Shapiro (and to some degree Tanenbaum) also makes the
>mistake of equating different address spaces with the
>notion of modularity. They have nothing to do with each
>other. You can be modular without using hardware to enforce
>it, and you can generate a horribly messy system where
>two processes are intimately aware of how each other works
>even if they are separated by MMU boundaries.
So how do you feel about microkernel-ish single address space systems? Obviously the two are separate concepts, but it's always struck me that they'd work well together. You get lot's of little protection domains, but still allow easy sharing when needed.
Obviously this is a somewhat theoretical question since most current hardware has, at best, mediocre support for SAS systems.
Topic | Posted By | Date |
---|---|---|
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Tzvetan Mikov | 2006/05/08 04:41 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | S. Rao | 2006/05/08 06:14 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Bill Todd | 2006/05/08 06:16 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Tzvetan Mikov | 2006/05/08 07:21 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | nick | 2006/05/08 07:50 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Bill Todd | 2006/05/09 01:26 AM |
There aren't enough words... | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/09 02:39 AM |
There aren't enough words... | Tzvetan Mikov | 2006/05/09 03:10 PM |
There aren't enough words... | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/15 12:25 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Tzvetan Mikov | 2006/05/09 11:17 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Bill Todd | 2006/05/09 04:05 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | rwessel | 2006/05/08 11:23 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Richard Urich | 2006/05/09 06:03 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | _Arthur | 2006/05/09 07:06 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/09 07:40 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | _Arthur | 2006/05/09 08:30 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/09 09:07 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | _Arthur | 2006/05/09 09:36 AM |
Linux vs MacOSX peformance, debunked | _Arthur | 2006/05/18 07:30 AM |
Linux vs MacOSX peformance, debunked | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/18 08:19 AM |
Linux vs MacOSX peformance, debunked | Anonymous | 2006/05/18 12:31 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Linus Torvalds | 2006/05/09 08:16 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Andi Kleen | 2006/05/09 02:32 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | myself | 2006/05/09 03:24 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | myself | 2006/05/09 03:41 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Brendan | 2006/05/09 05:26 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Linus Torvalds | 2006/05/09 08:06 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Brendan | 2006/05/13 01:35 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | nick | 2006/05/13 04:40 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Brendan | 2006/05/13 09:48 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | nick | 2006/05/13 07:41 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Brendan | 2006/05/13 09:51 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | nick | 2006/05/14 05:57 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Brendan | 2006/05/14 10:40 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | nick | 2006/05/14 11:46 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Brendan | 2006/05/15 04:00 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | rwessel | 2006/05/15 07:21 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Brendan | 2006/05/15 08:55 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Linus Torvalds | 2006/05/15 09:49 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | nick | 2006/05/15 04:41 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | tony roth | 2008/01/31 02:20 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | nick | 2006/05/15 06:33 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Brendan | 2006/05/16 01:39 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | nick | 2006/05/16 02:53 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Brendan | 2006/05/16 05:37 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Anonymous | 2008/05/01 10:31 PM |
Following the structure of the tree | Michael S | 2008/05/02 04:19 AM |
Following the structure of the tree | Dean Kent | 2008/05/02 05:31 AM |
Following the structure of the tree | Michael S | 2008/05/02 06:02 AM |
Following the structure of the tree | David W. Hess | 2008/05/02 06:48 AM |
Following the structure of the tree | Dean Kent | 2008/05/02 09:14 AM |
Following the structure of the tree | David W. Hess | 2008/05/02 10:05 AM |
LOL! | Dean Kent | 2008/05/02 10:33 AM |
Following the structure of the tree | anonymous | 2008/05/02 03:04 PM |
Following the structure of the tree | Dean Kent | 2008/05/02 07:52 PM |
Following the structure of the tree | Foo_ | 2008/05/03 02:01 AM |
Following the structure of the tree | David W. Hess | 2008/05/03 06:54 AM |
Following the structure of the tree | Dean Kent | 2008/05/03 10:06 AM |
Following the structure of the tree | Foo_ | 2008/05/04 01:06 AM |
Following the structure of the tree | Michael S | 2008/05/04 01:22 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | Linus Torvalds | 2006/05/09 05:19 PM |
Microkernel Vs Monolithic Kernel | Kernel_Protector | 2006/05/09 09:41 PM |
Microkernel Vs Monolithic Kernel | David Kanter | 2006/05/09 10:30 PM |
Sigh, Stand back, its slashdotting time. (NT) | Anonymous | 2006/05/09 10:44 PM |
Microkernel Vs Monolithic Kernel | blah | 2006/05/12 08:58 PM |
Microkernel Vs Monolithic Kernel | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/15 01:41 AM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT | AnalGuy | 2006/05/16 03:10 AM |
Theory versus practice | David Kanter | 2006/05/16 12:55 PM |
Distributed algorithms | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/17 12:53 AM |
Theory versus practice | Howard Chu | 2006/05/17 02:54 AM |
Theory versus practice | JS | 2006/05/17 04:29 AM |
Play online poker, blackjack !!! | Gamezonex | 2007/08/16 01:49 PM |
Hybrid kernel, not NT (NT) | atle rene mossik | 2020/12/12 09:31 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | philt | 2006/05/14 09:15 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Linus Torvalds | 2006/05/15 08:20 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Linus Torvalds | 2006/05/15 11:56 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/16 01:22 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | rwessel | 2006/05/16 11:23 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/17 12:43 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | rwessel | 2006/05/17 01:33 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/19 07:51 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | rwessel | 2006/05/19 12:27 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | techIperson | 2006/05/15 01:25 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | mas | 2006/05/15 05:17 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Linus Torvalds | 2006/05/15 05:39 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Colonel Kernel | 2006/05/15 09:17 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Wink Saville | 2006/05/15 10:31 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Linus Torvalds | 2006/05/16 10:08 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Wink Saville | 2006/05/16 09:55 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | rwessel | 2006/05/16 11:31 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Linus Torvalds | 2006/05/16 12:00 PM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Brendan | 2006/05/16 01:36 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Paul Elliott | 2006/09/03 08:44 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Rob Thorpe | 2006/09/04 09:25 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | philt | 2006/05/16 12:55 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | pgerassi | 2007/08/16 07:41 PM |
Another questionable entry on Wikipedia? | Chung Leong | 2006/05/18 10:33 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | israel | 2006/05/20 04:25 AM |
Hybrid (micro)kernels | Rob Thorpe | 2006/05/22 08:35 AM |