Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?

Article: Fall Processor Forum 2006: IBM's POWER6
By: Michael S (already5chosen.delete@this.yahoo.com), October 28, 2006 2:10 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds@osdl.org) on 10/27/06 wrote:
---------------------------
>Rob Thorpe (rthorpe@realworldtech.com) on 10/27/06 wrote:
>>
>>You can't not have special cases. Everything a
>>microprocessor does is a special case tailored to some
>>set of particular applications.
>
>My point, which you seem to totally miss, over and over
>again, is that certain design approaches makes this worse.
>
>For example, there is the approach that x86 chose (never
>mind the reasons):
>
>- memory ordering is totally an internal issue, and
>memory barriers aren't needed, because we will just
>make the uarch do the rigt thing
>
>is fundamentally more robust than the approach
>most RISC vendors took.
>
>In other words, while the two are "equally good" in theory
>(and, in fact, release consistency might be better in
>theory), in practice it is better to just
>not even aim for the theory.
>
>Why is that so hard for people to understand? You should
>avoid special cases in the first place, not optimize for
>them.
>
>So the fact is, you very much can "not have special
>cases" in most settings. Yes, you'll inevitably need them
>for something, but if you can avoid them, you're a
>lot better off.
>
>The x86 memory ordering is one such thing. It didn't have
>memory barriers, and instead of adding them, they just
>accepted the fact that they aren't needed, if you just
>see the instruction stream as largely linear, and hide the
>fact that the actual execution may not be from all other
>levels..
>
>See?
>
>The extreme way of not doing this right is to
>expose all the quirks very publicly, and make every single
>special case be an architectural feature, visible to all.
>So you'd have register renaming done in an architecturally
>visible manner, you'd have memory ordering done visibly,
>you'd have IEEE special cases done by software.
>
>That's "obviously better", because it allows the hardware
>engineers to punt the hard stuff, right?
>
>WRONG.
>
>And that's what I'm saying. Certain mental models
>are just wrong. The "let special cases be handled by others"
>is such a mental model. It may work, but it results
>in crap in the end.
>
>Linus

x86 ordering rules are by themselves a compromise between robustness (stores observed in program order by all parties) and efficiency (independent loads could be reordered). Why do you feel that this specific compromise is the most acceptable?
It seems x86 lack of ordering on loads causes no major headaches in practice solely due to the fact that typical IPC code contains atomic primitives and in case of x86 all SMP-safe atomic primitives contain memory barrier.

Rigorously applying you philosophy, “the uarch has to do the right thing” in case of the loads as well as in case of the stores.
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                                        PSTzvetan Mikov2006/10/20 03:30 PM
                          Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/20 01:26 AM
                            Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/20 01:34 PM
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                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/23 09:35 AM
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                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/24 11:26 AM
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                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/25 07:52 AM
                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/25 09:01 AM
                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/25 05:24 PM
                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentS. Rao2006/10/25 06:08 PM
                                                        Other approachesRob Thorpe2006/10/26 10:09 AM
                                                          Hang on I forgot the other approachesRob Thorpe2006/10/26 10:27 AM
                                                            Hang on I forgot the other approachesS. Rao2006/10/26 02:16 PM
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                                                                "Safety" and different types of safetyRob Thorpe2006/10/26 09:50 AM
                                                                  "Safety" and different types of safetyTzvetan Mikov2006/10/26 10:56 AM
                                                                    Exactly!Gabriele Svelto2006/10/27 12:29 AM
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                                                                            Explicit vs implicit barriersRob Thorpe2006/10/31 12:15 PM
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                                                                      Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Michael S2006/10/28 02:10 PM
                                                                        Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Linus Torvalds2006/10/28 04:29 PM
                                                                          Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Ricardo B2006/10/30 06:36 AM
                                                                            Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Linus Torvalds2006/10/30 09:57 AM
                                                                              Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Tzvetan Mikov2006/10/30 11:55 AM
                                                                                Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Michael S2006/10/30 12:14 PM
                                                                                  Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Tzvetan Mikov2006/10/30 12:20 PM
                                                                                    Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Michael S2006/10/30 01:11 PM
                                                                                      A reference would be nice :-) (NT)Tzvetan Mikov2006/10/30 01:32 PM
                                                                                        A reference Michael S2006/10/30 03:37 PM
                                                                                          A reference Tzvetan Mikov2006/11/03 08:57 PM
                                                                                            check your e-mbox (NT)Michael S2006/11/04 12:47 PM
                                                                                      Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?David Kanter2006/10/30 01:40 PM
                                                                                        Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Michael S2006/10/30 02:28 PM
                                                                                          Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?David Kanter2006/10/30 02:43 PM
                                                                                            Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Michael S2006/10/30 04:36 PM
                                                                                              Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?David Kanter2006/10/30 10:14 PM
                                                                                Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Linus Torvalds2006/10/30 12:53 PM
                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/31 11:25 AM
                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/31 12:59 PM
                                                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/31 01:38 PM
                                                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/31 02:02 PM
                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/31 03:54 PM
                                                                                Will reply tommorrow, very busy today (NT)Rob Thorpe2006/11/01 11:14 AM
                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/11/02 01:30 PM
                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentrwessel2006/11/02 02:06 PM
                                                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/03 02:39 AM
                                                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/11/03 09:40 AM
                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/03 10:12 AM
                                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/11/03 01:20 PM
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                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentEric Bron2006/11/04 04:47 AM
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                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/04 12:29 PM
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                                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/11/05 10:14 AM
                                                                                          unaligned SSE testsEric Bron2006/11/05 02:26 PM
                                                                                            unaligned SSE testsMichael S2006/11/05 03:47 PM
                                                                                              unaligned SSE testsEric Bron2006/11/05 04:23 PM
                                                                                                unaligned SSE testsMichael S2006/11/05 05:03 PM
                                                                                                  unaligned SSE testsEric Bron2006/11/05 05:28 PM
                                                                                                    Now results make sense. How about Psc? (NT)Michael S2006/11/05 05:37 PM
                                                                                                      tomorrow, it's 01:43 PM where I'm (NT)Eric Bron2006/11/05 05:44 PM
                                                                                                        I mean 01:43 AM (NT)Eric Bron2006/11/05 05:45 PM
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                                                                                                        PSC scoresMichael S2006/11/06 04:28 AM
                                                                                                          PSC scoresIan Ameline2006/11/06 09:00 AM
                                                                                                            meaningful performance gainMichael S2006/11/06 09:33 AM
                                                                                                              meaningful performance gainLinus Torvalds2006/11/06 11:15 AM
                                                                                                                Dynamically resolved alignmentDavid Kanter2006/11/06 12:49 PM
                                                                                                                  Dynamically resolved alignmentRicardo B2006/11/06 01:46 PM
                                                                                                                  Dynamically resolved alignmentLinus Torvalds2006/11/06 01:48 PM
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                                                                                                        RE: "I suppose we will have to continue to align" ...Not really :)redpriest2006/11/06 05:11 PM
                                                                                                          Your point?Michael S2006/11/06 05:47 PM
                                                                                                            Actually Michael, it's quite a bit more than that.redpriest2006/11/06 06:30 PM
                                                                                                              Actually Michael, it's quite a bit more than that.anonymous2006/11/06 08:36 PM
                                                                                                                Actually Michael, it's quite a bit more than that.Linus Torvalds2006/11/06 09:01 PM
                                                                                                                  Actually Michael, it's quite a bit more than that.Rob Thorpe2006/11/07 03:31 AM
                                                                                                                  Actually Michael, it's quite a bit more than that.anonymous2006/11/07 07:27 AM
                                                                                                              link vs linqMichael S2006/11/07 02:04 AM
                                                                                                                link vs linqanonymous2006/11/07 07:13 AM
                                                                                                                  Thank you (NT)Michael S2006/11/07 08:04 AM
                                                                                                          Barcelona dreamsEric Bron2006/11/07 01:08 AM
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                                                                                                          A common problemWilco2006/11/09 04:46 PM
                                                                                                            A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/10 08:29 AM
                                                                                                              A common problemrwessel2006/11/13 04:47 PM
                                                                                                                A common problemWilco2006/11/13 05:51 PM
                                                                                                                  A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/14 03:38 AM
                                                                                                                    A common problemLinus Torvalds2006/11/14 09:37 AM
                                                                                                                      A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/14 11:18 AM
                                                                                                                        A common problemagony2006/11/14 02:57 PM
                                                                                                                          A common problemrwessel2006/11/14 04:13 PM
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                                                                                                                        A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/16 07:29 AM
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                                                                                                                      A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/16 09:20 AM
                                                                                                                        A common problemrwessel2006/11/16 04:27 PM
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                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentJasonB2006/10/30 09:21 AM
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                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/30 08:02 AM
                                                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/30 08:12 AM
                                                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/30 08:29 AM
                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/30 08:40 AM
                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentdraugaz2006/10/30 12:31 PM
                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/30 10:09 AM
                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/31 02:01 AM
                                                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/31 08:59 AM
                                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentpgerassi2006/10/27 08:00 PM
                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentbandwidth2006/10/28 03:25 AM
                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentpgerassi2006/10/31 01:32 AM
                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/31 06:52 AM
                                                        pythonFoo_2006/10/28 01:51 AM
                                                          pythonTzvetan Mikov2006/10/28 04:55 PM
                                                            pythonFoo_2006/10/29 03:51 AM
                                                          pythonRob Thorpe2006/10/31 05:01 AM
                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/24 10:53 AM
                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/25 01:00 AM
                                          Language safety in a multithread environment (Lock-free structures)Ray2006/10/28 11:25 AM
                                            Language safety in a multithread environment (Lock-free structures)Linus Torvalds2006/10/28 11:58 AM
                                              Language safety in a multithread environment (Lock-free structures)Ray2006/10/28 04:47 PM
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                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentJuho Snellman2006/10/25 06:38 AM
                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/25 07:06 AM
                                                More on this topicRob Thorpe2006/10/25 08:41 AM
                                                  More on this topicTzvetan Mikov2006/10/25 10:17 AM
                                                    More on this topicRob Thorpe2006/10/26 02:02 AM
                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentJuho Snellman2006/10/25 10:33 AM
                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/26 01:48 AM
                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentS. Rao2006/10/23 03:40 PM
                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/23 11:38 PM
                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/24 01:02 AM
                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentS. Rao2006/10/24 12:40 PM
                                        Comparison to stack allocationRob Thorpe2006/10/24 03:09 AM
                                          Comparison to stack allocationS. Rao2006/10/24 12:32 PM
                                            Exactly, see my other post (NT)Rob Thorpe2006/10/25 12:53 AM
                          Language safety in a multithread environmentDavid Wragg2006/10/20 02:46 AM
                            Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/21 09:24 AM
                          Ugh, evil problemRob Thorpe2006/10/20 03:56 AM
                            Ugh, evil problemGabriele Svelto2006/10/20 04:38 AM
                              Ugh, evil problemRob Thorpe2006/10/20 05:47 AM
                                Ugh, evil problemGabriele Svelto2006/10/20 05:54 AM
                                Ugh, evil problemRicardo B2006/10/20 06:43 AM
                            Ugh, evil problemJasonB2006/10/20 06:17 AM
                              Ugh, evil problemS. Rao2006/10/20 08:09 PM
                                Ugh, evil problemJasonB2006/10/21 07:58 AM
                                SecondedRob Thorpe2006/10/23 01:53 AM
                          Copying GC Rob Thorpe2006/10/23 02:51 AM
                            Copying GC Tzvetan Mikov2006/10/23 11:13 PM
                              Copying GC Rob Thorpe2006/10/24 01:22 AM
              Python + native extensionsFoo_2006/10/18 02:29 PM
                Python + native extensionssp2006/10/19 01:05 AM
  z9 - Power5 connection?foobar2006/10/17 01:15 PM
    z9 - Power5 connection?David Kanter2006/10/17 02:03 PM
      z9 - Power5 connection?foobar2006/10/17 02:33 PM
        z9 - Power5 connection?rwessel2006/10/17 07:39 PM
          z9 - Power5 connection?foobar2006/10/17 08:38 PM
            Sounds like I should edit the article...David Kanter2006/10/17 10:48 PM
            z9 - Power5 connection?Jesper Frimann2006/10/17 11:59 PM
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How do you spell avocado?