Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?

Article: Fall Processor Forum 2006: IBM's POWER6
By: Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.osdl.org), October 30, 2006 12:53 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Tzvetan Mikov (tzvetanmi@yahoo.com) on 10/30/06 wrote:
>
>I think the question here is not so much how it can be
>done technically, but is it really being done on all
>existing x86 CPUs ?

I really don't know if it's done on any existing
CPU. I'm just saying that (a) it's certainly technically
feasible and (b) I was surprised myself, but I was told
that read barriers are likely unnecessary on current CPU's.

So don't take it as anything else than hearsay - but the
point that explicit barriers are certainly not needed in
theory stands on its own.

>While the CPU has no problem reordering two loads to
>different known addresses locally, doing that for
>shared data is a different matter. As I suggested
>in another post, you need to be able to replay
>instructions if the second load gets "invalidated".

Well, there are actually other ways to do it.

You can do it by simply not releasing any cachelines that
you have made speculative reads to, until those reads
have been retired. If you don't allow speculative reads
past a store instruction that doesn't hit in the cache,
you have no issues with that (the "doesn't hit in the
cache" case is important, because otherwise you could have
a deadlock with two cores both waiting to get exclusive
access, and neither releasing the cacheline that the other
core needs).

That sounds very straightforward, and would allow a
limited (but still important) case of load re-ordering
unless I missed something.

Alternatively, just have each L1 eviction check a list
of "not yet retired" load instructions. If that list has
the L1 line listed in it, you just mark it as taking a
micro-trap on retirement rather than really retiring.

That doesn't sound that different from a number of the
other micro-traps we know the P4 core does, and is a lot
simpler than the load-store re-ordering that Core 2 is
known to do (which triggers on a much more complex and
critical path than L1 eviction, and needs prediction etc
hardware to work well - the SMP eviction case doesn't need
any prediction what-so-ever, since it's known ahead of
time to be very unlikely).

So I think that doing the load-load reorderign is
actually much easier than the load-to-unknown-store-addr
reodering. But hey, I don't know a P-transistor from an
N one, so take that with a boatload of salt..

>That strikes me as very complicated. You are saying that
>the original PPro did it.

No, I've several times said that I don't know whether any
existing x86 CPU actually does it, but that one x86
architect has claimed to me in private that the read
barriers that the kernel currently uses on x86 likely are
not needed.

And quite frankly, my point is not whether it's done or
not. My point is that it can be done, and doing it
would be clearly superior (from a performance standpoint)
than any explicit barriers can ever be.

That was what the argument was all about. People claim
that explicit barriers are "better". They're not. What
would truly be better is an architecture that can
claim to look totally in-order, yet execute things
out of order dynamically.

This is in no way new. It's what all OoO execution has
always been all about: looking like you execute instructions
in order, but actually hiding the fact that you can do
them faster if you internally do them in a different order,
one that depends on a lot of internal choices and issues.

Yes, OoO is more complex, and similarly, an OoO memory
pipeline that avoids explicit flushes is clearly also more
complex than one that doesn't track things and you have to
have explicit barriers for. But it's clearly a better
one, wouldn't you agree?

>If it so, I don't understand why all x86 before Core don't
>already reorder loads across stores - it seems that it
>takes the same machinery.

Well, earlier cores obviously do reorder loads before
stores, but only for the trivial case of already knowing
the address. The P6 and P4 both do that, iirc. But that's a
simpler case and has a much simpler solution (the "we don't
care, they can never alias" solution ;)

As far as I know AMD chips have traditionally never
reordered loads past stores at all (I may be wrong), which
means that at least they could have used the much simpler
"just hold on to the cacheline until the instruction
retires" approach and still done load-load reordering.

But I really don't know. Because of the Intel architecture
manual, all the kernel code ends up using explicit read
barriers, and that certainly works. Whether it is strictly
necessary... It's hard to test.

And I would not depend on it, I'm just saying that I would
be happy if it were to be true. Because it clearly
would be a very nice programming model.

Linus
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                          Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/19 11:43 AM
                            Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/19 12:11 PM
                              Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/19 02:23 PM
                                Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/19 04:08 PM
                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/20 05:04 AM
                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/20 01:53 PM
                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/20 02:06 PM
                                      PSRicardo B2006/10/20 02:12 PM
                                        PSTzvetan Mikov2006/10/20 03:30 PM
                          Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/20 01:26 AM
                            Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/20 01:34 PM
                              Language safety in a multithread environmentS. Rao2006/10/20 08:39 PM
                                Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/21 09:39 AM
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                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/21 04:45 PM
                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/22 09:42 AM
                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/23 09:35 AM
                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/23 04:06 PM
                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/23 11:55 PM
                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/24 07:35 AM
                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/24 11:26 AM
                                                ClarificationTzvetan Mikov2006/10/24 12:15 PM
                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/25 07:37 AM
                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/25 07:52 AM
                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/25 09:01 AM
                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/25 05:24 PM
                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentS. Rao2006/10/25 06:08 PM
                                                        Other approachesRob Thorpe2006/10/26 10:09 AM
                                                          Hang on I forgot the other approachesRob Thorpe2006/10/26 10:27 AM
                                                            Hang on I forgot the other approachesS. Rao2006/10/26 02:16 PM
                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/26 03:56 AM
                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/26 07:52 AM
                                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/26 08:11 AM
                                                            "Safety" and different types of safetyRob Thorpe2006/10/26 08:58 AM
                                                              "Safety" and different types of safetyLinus Torvalds2006/10/26 09:26 AM
                                                                "Safety" and different types of safetyRob Thorpe2006/10/26 09:50 AM
                                                                  "Safety" and different types of safetyTzvetan Mikov2006/10/26 10:56 AM
                                                                    Exactly!Gabriele Svelto2006/10/27 12:29 AM
                                                                  message passing languagesFoo_2006/10/28 01:19 AM
                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/26 10:45 AM
                                                          RecapTzvetan Mikov2006/10/26 11:19 AM
                                                            Information and ickiness on JavaRob Thorpe2006/10/27 04:38 AM
                                                              Excellent threadJasonB2006/10/27 02:57 PM
                                                                Excellent threadsp2006/10/28 12:38 AM
                                                              Information and ickiness on JavaTzvetan Mikov2006/10/27 05:12 PM
                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/26 08:17 AM
                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/26 08:57 AM
                                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/26 09:38 AM
                                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentS. Rao2006/10/26 02:51 PM
                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/27 01:26 AM
                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/27 08:40 AM
                                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/27 09:06 AM
                                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/27 10:53 AM
                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentrwessel2006/10/27 03:21 PM
                                                                        Explicit vs implicit barriersTzvetan Mikov2006/10/27 05:39 PM
                                                                          Explicit vs implicit barriersLinus Torvalds2006/10/27 06:28 PM
                                                                            Explicit vs implicit barriersTzvetan Mikov2006/10/28 06:02 PM
                                                                              Explicit vs implicit barriersLinus Torvalds2006/10/28 07:55 PM
                                                                                Explicit vs implicit barriersRob Thorpe2006/10/31 12:37 PM
                                                                            Explicit vs implicit barriersRob Thorpe2006/10/31 12:15 PM
                                                                          Explicit vs implicit barriersrwessel2006/10/27 06:39 PM
                                                                      Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Michael S2006/10/28 02:10 PM
                                                                        Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Linus Torvalds2006/10/28 04:29 PM
                                                                          Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Ricardo B2006/10/30 06:36 AM
                                                                            Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Linus Torvalds2006/10/30 09:57 AM
                                                                              Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Tzvetan Mikov2006/10/30 11:55 AM
                                                                                Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Michael S2006/10/30 12:14 PM
                                                                                  Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Tzvetan Mikov2006/10/30 12:20 PM
                                                                                    Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Michael S2006/10/30 01:11 PM
                                                                                      A reference would be nice :-) (NT)Tzvetan Mikov2006/10/30 01:32 PM
                                                                                        A reference Michael S2006/10/30 03:37 PM
                                                                                          A reference Tzvetan Mikov2006/11/03 08:57 PM
                                                                                            check your e-mbox (NT)Michael S2006/11/04 12:47 PM
                                                                                      Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?David Kanter2006/10/30 01:40 PM
                                                                                        Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Michael S2006/10/30 02:28 PM
                                                                                          Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?David Kanter2006/10/30 02:43 PM
                                                                                            Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Michael S2006/10/30 04:36 PM
                                                                                              Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?David Kanter2006/10/30 10:14 PM
                                                                                Why OoO stores are evil but OoO loads are o.k.?Linus Torvalds2006/10/30 12:53 PM
                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/31 11:25 AM
                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/31 12:59 PM
                                                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/31 01:38 PM
                                                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/31 02:02 PM
                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/31 03:54 PM
                                                                                Will reply tommorrow, very busy today (NT)Rob Thorpe2006/11/01 11:14 AM
                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/11/02 01:30 PM
                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentrwessel2006/11/02 02:06 PM
                                                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/03 02:39 AM
                                                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/11/03 09:40 AM
                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/03 10:12 AM
                                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/11/03 01:20 PM
                                                                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/06 03:42 AM
                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentEric Bron2006/11/04 04:47 AM
                                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/06 04:13 AM
                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/04 12:29 PM
                                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/11/04 02:54 PM
                                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/06 03:54 AM
                                                                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/06 12:26 PM
                                                                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/07 01:54 AM
                                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/07 04:34 PM
                                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/08 02:29 AM
                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentrwessel2006/11/04 10:13 PM
                                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentrwessel2006/11/04 10:23 PM
                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentMichael S2006/11/05 04:05 AM
                                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/11/05 10:14 AM
                                                                                          unaligned SSE testsEric Bron2006/11/05 02:26 PM
                                                                                            unaligned SSE testsMichael S2006/11/05 03:47 PM
                                                                                              unaligned SSE testsEric Bron2006/11/05 04:23 PM
                                                                                                unaligned SSE testsMichael S2006/11/05 05:03 PM
                                                                                                  unaligned SSE testsEric Bron2006/11/05 05:28 PM
                                                                                                    Now results make sense. How about Psc? (NT)Michael S2006/11/05 05:37 PM
                                                                                                      tomorrow, it's 01:43 PM where I'm (NT)Eric Bron2006/11/05 05:44 PM
                                                                                                        I mean 01:43 AM (NT)Eric Bron2006/11/05 05:45 PM
                                                                                                      PSC scoresEric Bron2006/11/06 02:25 AM
                                                                                                        PSC scoresMichael S2006/11/06 04:28 AM
                                                                                                          PSC scoresIan Ameline2006/11/06 09:00 AM
                                                                                                            meaningful performance gainMichael S2006/11/06 09:33 AM
                                                                                                              meaningful performance gainLinus Torvalds2006/11/06 11:15 AM
                                                                                                                Dynamically resolved alignmentDavid Kanter2006/11/06 12:49 PM
                                                                                                                  Dynamically resolved alignmentRicardo B2006/11/06 01:46 PM
                                                                                                                  Dynamically resolved alignmentLinus Torvalds2006/11/06 01:48 PM
                                                                                                                meaningful performance gainEric Bron2006/11/07 02:23 AM
                                                                                                        RE: "I suppose we will have to continue to align" ...Not really :)redpriest2006/11/06 05:11 PM
                                                                                                          Your point?Michael S2006/11/06 05:47 PM
                                                                                                            Actually Michael, it's quite a bit more than that.redpriest2006/11/06 06:30 PM
                                                                                                              Actually Michael, it's quite a bit more than that.anonymous2006/11/06 08:36 PM
                                                                                                                Actually Michael, it's quite a bit more than that.Linus Torvalds2006/11/06 09:01 PM
                                                                                                                  Actually Michael, it's quite a bit more than that.Rob Thorpe2006/11/07 03:31 AM
                                                                                                                  Actually Michael, it's quite a bit more than that.anonymous2006/11/07 07:27 AM
                                                                                                              link vs linqMichael S2006/11/07 02:04 AM
                                                                                                                link vs linqanonymous2006/11/07 07:13 AM
                                                                                                                  Thank you (NT)Michael S2006/11/07 08:04 AM
                                                                                                          Barcelona dreamsEric Bron2006/11/07 01:08 AM
                                                                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/05 03:14 PM
                                                                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/11/05 03:56 PM
                                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/05 06:52 PM
                                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/11/05 09:09 PM
                                                                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/06 02:25 PM
                                                                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/11/06 03:48 PM
                                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/06 04:44 PM
                                                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/11/06 04:53 PM
                                                                                                        A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/07 09:45 AM
                                                                                                          A common problemWilco2006/11/09 04:46 PM
                                                                                                            A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/10 08:29 AM
                                                                                                              A common problemrwessel2006/11/13 04:47 PM
                                                                                                                A common problemWilco2006/11/13 05:51 PM
                                                                                                                  A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/14 03:38 AM
                                                                                                                    A common problemLinus Torvalds2006/11/14 09:37 AM
                                                                                                                      A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/14 11:18 AM
                                                                                                                        A common problemagony2006/11/14 02:57 PM
                                                                                                                          A common problemrwessel2006/11/14 04:13 PM
                                                                                                                            A common problemAndi Kleen2006/11/15 04:24 AM
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                                                                                                                              A common problemCarlie Coats2006/11/16 06:44 AM
                                                                                                                              A common problemLinus Torvalds2006/11/16 10:03 AM
                                                                                                                      A common problemCarlie Coats2006/11/16 06:38 AM
                                                                                                                        A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/16 07:29 AM
                                                                                                                    A common problemWilco2006/11/15 02:13 PM
                                                                                                                      A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/16 09:20 AM
                                                                                                                        A common problemrwessel2006/11/16 04:27 PM
                                                                                                                        A common problemWilco2006/11/17 02:20 PM
                                                                                                                          A common problemRob Thorpe2006/11/20 04:14 AM
                                                                                          You are aiming too lowMichael S2006/11/05 04:19 PM
                                                                                            And you're aiming quite highRob Thorpe2006/11/06 08:00 AM
                                                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/04 11:20 AM
                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/06 04:10 AM
                                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/06 10:59 AM
                                                                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/08 02:47 AM
                                                                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/13 05:13 PM
                                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/11/14 02:15 AM
                                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentWilco2006/11/17 02:51 PM
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                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/27 08:10 PM
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                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/28 09:23 AM
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                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/30 06:52 AM
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                                                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/30 07:28 AM
                                                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentJasonB2006/10/30 08:32 AM
                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/30 08:48 AM
                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentJasonB2006/10/30 09:21 AM
                                                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/30 07:31 AM
                                                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/30 07:43 AM
                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/30 07:54 AM
                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/30 08:02 AM
                                                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/30 08:12 AM
                                                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/30 08:29 AM
                                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentRicardo B2006/10/30 08:40 AM
                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentdraugaz2006/10/30 12:31 PM
                                                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/30 10:09 AM
                                                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/31 02:01 AM
                                                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentLinus Torvalds2006/10/31 08:59 AM
                                                                    Language safety in a multithread environmentpgerassi2006/10/27 08:00 PM
                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentbandwidth2006/10/28 03:25 AM
                                                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentpgerassi2006/10/31 01:32 AM
                                                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/31 06:52 AM
                                                        pythonFoo_2006/10/28 01:51 AM
                                                          pythonTzvetan Mikov2006/10/28 04:55 PM
                                                            pythonFoo_2006/10/29 03:51 AM
                                                          pythonRob Thorpe2006/10/31 05:01 AM
                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/24 10:53 AM
                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/25 01:00 AM
                                          Language safety in a multithread environment (Lock-free structures)Ray2006/10/28 11:25 AM
                                            Language safety in a multithread environment (Lock-free structures)Linus Torvalds2006/10/28 11:58 AM
                                              Language safety in a multithread environment (Lock-free structures)Ray2006/10/28 04:47 PM
                                                Language safety in a multithread environment (Lock-free structures)Linus Torvalds2006/10/28 08:02 PM
                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentJuho Snellman2006/10/25 03:59 AM
                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/25 04:38 AM
                                            Language safety in a multithread environmentJuho Snellman2006/10/25 06:38 AM
                                              Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/25 07:06 AM
                                                More on this topicRob Thorpe2006/10/25 08:41 AM
                                                  More on this topicTzvetan Mikov2006/10/25 10:17 AM
                                                    More on this topicRob Thorpe2006/10/26 02:02 AM
                                                Language safety in a multithread environmentJuho Snellman2006/10/25 10:33 AM
                                                  Language safety in a multithread environmentRob Thorpe2006/10/26 01:48 AM
                                      Language safety in a multithread environmentS. Rao2006/10/23 03:40 PM
                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/23 11:38 PM
                                        Language safety in a multithread environmentGabriele Svelto2006/10/24 01:02 AM
                                          Language safety in a multithread environmentS. Rao2006/10/24 12:40 PM
                                        Comparison to stack allocationRob Thorpe2006/10/24 03:09 AM
                                          Comparison to stack allocationS. Rao2006/10/24 12:32 PM
                                            Exactly, see my other post (NT)Rob Thorpe2006/10/25 12:53 AM
                          Language safety in a multithread environmentDavid Wragg2006/10/20 02:46 AM
                            Language safety in a multithread environmentTzvetan Mikov2006/10/21 09:24 AM
                          Ugh, evil problemRob Thorpe2006/10/20 03:56 AM
                            Ugh, evil problemGabriele Svelto2006/10/20 04:38 AM
                              Ugh, evil problemRob Thorpe2006/10/20 05:47 AM
                                Ugh, evil problemGabriele Svelto2006/10/20 05:54 AM
                                Ugh, evil problemRicardo B2006/10/20 06:43 AM
                            Ugh, evil problemJasonB2006/10/20 06:17 AM
                              Ugh, evil problemS. Rao2006/10/20 08:09 PM
                                Ugh, evil problemJasonB2006/10/21 07:58 AM
                                SecondedRob Thorpe2006/10/23 01:53 AM
                          Copying GC Rob Thorpe2006/10/23 02:51 AM
                            Copying GC Tzvetan Mikov2006/10/23 11:13 PM
                              Copying GC Rob Thorpe2006/10/24 01:22 AM
              Python + native extensionsFoo_2006/10/18 02:29 PM
                Python + native extensionssp2006/10/19 01:05 AM
  z9 - Power5 connection?foobar2006/10/17 01:15 PM
    z9 - Power5 connection?David Kanter2006/10/17 02:03 PM
      z9 - Power5 connection?foobar2006/10/17 02:33 PM
        z9 - Power5 connection?rwessel2006/10/17 07:39 PM
          z9 - Power5 connection?foobar2006/10/17 08:38 PM
            Sounds like I should edit the article...David Kanter2006/10/17 10:48 PM
            z9 - Power5 connection?Jesper Frimann2006/10/17 11:59 PM
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How do you spell avocado?