SLC vs. MLC

By: Michael S (already5chosen.delete@this.yahoo.com), September 10, 2008 9:54 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds@linux-foundation.org) on 9/10/08 wrote:
---------------------------
>Michael S (already5chosen@yahoo.com) on 9/10/08 wrote:
>>
>>For normal usage write latency doesn't matter at all.
>
>This is absolutely not true!
>
>It's a common mistake to think this, but the fact is,
>write latency - even for individual IOs - can matter a
>lot.
>
>You are right to a point that it doesn't matter for normal
>write-backs that are all totally buffered, but:
>
>- most hardware interfaces have quite limited queues.
>
>For example, if you're a SATA disk, the number of
>outstanding writes to the disk is usually in the low
>tens (ie 16-32). It can be lower.
>
>This means that if you have a GC event that means that
>writes will basically hit a roadblock for tens or even
>hundreds of milliseconds, then if any writeback is
>going on, then totally unrelated reads will also
>be blocked, simply because there are no more entries in
>the hardware queue.
>
>Yes, you can limit the number of outstanding writes to
>less than the number of hw queue entries, but nobody
>does that because it would hurt throughput quite a lot.
>

But in this case I'd suffer from increased _read_ latency (and/or reduced throughput), not write. That's something I can measure.

>- even if you never hit the above issue (and you will),
>there are many operations that effectively require
>synchronous writes.
>
>This will commonly happen for certain metadata (it does
>depend on the filesystem a lot), but it will also happen
>for perfectly regular data when the user asks for a
>sync write. And no, it's not at all "special" to do that.
>
>Every single sane mail reader will do it, to make sure
>that email won't be lost in case of a data loss. A lot
>of editors will do it for the same reason. Anybody who
>uses a database will do it, and many databases will have
>a huge hiccup if the writes bunch up due to GC events.

As I said in the other post, then the storage device should lie to you, or let's call it telling more relevant truth :-)
It should tell me that the data is written not when it is actually written to non-volatile media but immediately after device itself is sure that it will inevitably happen.

>
>And what uses databases? Pretty much everything. Look
>at Firefox-3. It puts all your browsing history, and all
>your preferences, and all your caches in one single
>database, and then because the database engine thinks it
>is all so horibly important (and the FF people were
>silly enough to do so too), it will write much of it out
>synchronously. Causing huge delays when the file
>system must flush the whole log.
>
>Really. None of the above issues are even remotely
>odd or uncommon, even for very standard desktop operations
>(and that's when you'll notice half-second pauses very very
>clearly indeed!).
>
>So single-write latency very much absolutely does matter.
>
>And yes, you can put a RAM buffer on the SSD, have a cap
>to give it time to flush even in the case of power loss,
>return "success" early from the write, and yes, people
>actually do that. But no, it doesn't actually help
>at all for the event of something like a GC cycle causing
>a few hundred ms of delays.
>
>Why? Because when that happens, al writes will be
>buffered up, and it will just move the point (slightly)
>at which point the thing is stuck. It can hide the problem
>under light load, but not under any kind of real
>write-back event.

But then again, I'd feel the problem as the read latency, read throughput or write throughput.

>
>>Write latency doesn't matter so much that application
>>program has no easy way to measure it.
>
>Sadly, a lot of people seem to think like you. The whole
>FF thing was a total disaster. Now, admittedly, it was
>largely just the FF people being totally stupid, and just
>thinking that databases are wonderful, but that in turn
>was because people don't understand these issues!
>
>>The only case where write latency matters is a data
>>retention during sudden loss of power, but that's vendor's
>>problem, not ours. At least I hope so.
>
>See above: your buffers will fill up.
>
>And if you think a few hundred ms is unrealistic for a
>GC event, you're very naive! Even with much faster
>RAM, even with much smaller data sets, GC events can take
>seconds to complete if you do them badly. From the
>timings I've seen of the OCZ SSD's (which actually perform
>really well on average), when it hits a wall, it really
>does hit a wall, ie latencies really are in the
>second range, not milliseconds.
>
>(To some degree, GC on a SSD is slightly simpler than GC on
>some generic RAM allocation, since you have fixed 512-byte
>blocks rather than any random size. But on the other hand,
>the whole erase cycle thing introduces complexities all its
>own, so I suspect it's all pretty nasty).
>
>>Random writes throughput is something we could measure
>>with relative ease, That tells as that, unlike write
>>latency, random writes throughput could be practically
>>important.
>
>I do not know why you link "ease of measurement" with the
>concept of "importance". Why do you link the two?
>

Because, when something is important to me I should always know how to measure it, may be not precisely, but at least I should be easily able to tell that A is bigger than B. To do it just compare the "goodness" of the very same operation for which you think the property in question is important.

>Yes, write-back performance is much harder to measure, but
>that's because it's asynchronous, not because it's
>not important.
>
>And things like hiccups in sync write latencies are harder
>to measure because they have very non-obvious patterns, to
>the point of being almost random (ie it will depend on
>other load issues like how much data is queued up in the
>system, and where the GC event happens, etc etc).
>
>And yes, latency in general is much harder to measure
>well than throughput. For throughput, you just time the
>start and the end, and divide by the amount of work. But
>measuring latency means having to have lots and lots of
>timing points over the whole workload, and doing some real
>analysis to see where maxima are etc.

I don't agree that read latency is hard to measure. It can be time-consuming and it is possible that in order to be relevant the result should be presented as histogram rather than a single number, but conceptually the measurement is simple. Not so for write latency.


>
>So yes, throughput is much much easier to measure. But then
>thinking that that means that it is more important is really
>misguided. When you actually use a desktop, I will
>guarantee you that what ends up irritating you will
>almost always be the latency issues, not the throughput.
>
>Really.
>
>Linus

Yes, almost always the latency. Read latency.
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TopicPosted ByDate
First Dunnington benchmark resultsMichael S2008/08/19 10:54 AM
  First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/19 01:42 PM
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        First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 09:49 AM
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            First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 06:42 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 07:12 PM
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        First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:12 PM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 03:15 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 02:59 AM
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        +SSDAnders Jensen2008/08/20 03:30 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 11:04 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsslacker2008/08/20 12:35 PM
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                  SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/08/21 06:25 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCRichard Cownie2008/08/21 06:32 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/21 08:39 AM
                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/08/21 09:07 AM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/21 09:52 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/08/21 10:35 AM
                            OLTP appliance = mainframe? (NT)Potatoswatter2008/08/21 11:44 AM
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                          SLC vs. MLCDan Downs2008/08/21 11:33 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCrwessel2008/08/21 12:45 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCDan Downs2008/08/22 08:21 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:34 PM
                          SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMpgerassi2008/08/21 12:24 PM
                            SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMDavid Kanter2008/08/22 01:31 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCGroo2008/08/23 12:52 PM
                      SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert2008/08/21 06:14 PM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/22 08:05 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert2008/08/22 02:27 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCEduardoS2008/08/22 06:26 PM
                            SSD Controller differentiationDavid Kanter2008/08/22 09:35 PM
                              SSD Controller differentiationDoug Siebert2008/08/22 10:34 PM
                                SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)anon2008/08/23 10:18 AM
                                  SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)Doug Siebert2008/08/23 10:40 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/23 10:50 AM
                              SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/08 12:03 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/08 01:51 PM
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                                      SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/09 12:12 AM
                                        RAM vs SSD?Jouni Osmala2008/09/09 01:06 AM
                                          RAM vs SSD?Max2008/09/12 12:51 PM
                                            RAM vs SSD?EduardoS2008/09/12 04:27 PM
                                            Disk cache snapshottingMax2008/09/13 08:34 AM
                                              Disk cache snapshottingHoward Chu2008/09/14 09:58 PM
                                                Disk cache snapshottingMax2008/09/15 12:50 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/09 07:43 AM
                                          SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/09 09:42 AM
                                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/09 10:39 AM
                                              SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 12:29 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCanon2008/09/10 02:51 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 03:09 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/10 04:48 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 05:52 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/10 06:28 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/09/10 06:21 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:17 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCanon2008/09/10 06:29 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:23 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/09/10 10:45 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/10 07:25 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:54 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/10 10:31 AM
                                                      Physical vs effective write latencyMax2008/09/11 07:35 AM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 09:06 AM
                                                          Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 09:48 AM
                                                            Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 11:39 AM
                                                              Physical vs effective write latencyMark Roulo2008/09/11 12:18 PM
                                                                Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:59 PM
                                                                  Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 07:16 PM
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                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyMS2009/02/03 03:06 PM
                                                  SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/11 12:39 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/11 01:17 PM
                                                      SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/11 05:25 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:47 PM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyrwessel2008/09/11 06:01 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/12 12:00 AM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/12 08:52 PM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/13 10:06 AM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyUngo2008/09/15 12:18 PM
                                                              To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveDavid Kanter2008/09/22 01:12 AM
                                                                To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveHoward Chu2008/09/22 04:02 AM
                                                                  To SSD or not? Real data..Linus Torvalds2008/09/22 07:33 AM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Ungo2008/09/22 12:27 PM
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                                                                        4K sectorsDaniel2008/09/22 10:31 PM
                                                                      Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDoug Siebert2008/09/22 09:38 PM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel2008/09/22 10:09 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsHoward Chu2008/09/23 02:50 AM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel2008/09/22 10:40 PM
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                                                                            Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel2008/09/23 12:10 PM
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                                                                        HDD long sector size availabilityrwessel2008/09/23 09:19 AM
                                                                          HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart2008/09/23 02:17 PM
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                                                          overlapped erase and read David W. Hess2008/09/12 09:56 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read Anonymous2008/09/12 08:45 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Jouni Osmala2008/09/12 11:56 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/13 11:29 AM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/13 12:09 PM
                                                              overlapped erase and read Linus Torvalds2008/09/13 02:05 PM
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                                      SSD and RAIDJoe Chang2008/09/08 07:42 PM
                                        SSD and RAIDDoug Siebert2008/09/08 09:46 PM
                                          SSD and RAIDAaron Spink2008/09/09 04:27 PM
                                            SSD and RAIDGroo2008/09/10 01:02 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/06 10:22 AM
                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/06 02:04 PM
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                                      SLC vs. MLCanonymous2009/01/06 05:17 PM
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                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/06 06:09 PM
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                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 09:23 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionMichael S2009/01/26 01:39 PM
                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 02:31 PM
                                                            The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/26 03:06 PM
                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 04:29 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMark Christiansen2009/01/27 09:24 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionMark Christiansen2009/01/27 10:14 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/27 10:15 AM
                                                                    The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/27 11:20 AM
                                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/27 01:16 PM
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                                                                        The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/27 05:25 PM
                                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/28 08:17 AM
                                                                            The File Abstraction: API thoughtsCarlie Coats2009/01/28 09:35 AM
                                                                            The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/28 10:09 AM
                                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/28 01:44 PM
                                                                                Programs already 'hide' their metadata in the bytestream, unbeknownst to usersanon2009/01/28 09:28 PM
                                                                                The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/29 10:39 AM
                                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/29 11:08 AM
                                                                                    The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/29 11:49 AM
                                                                                      The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/29 02:58 PM
                                                                                        The File Abstractionrwessel2009/01/29 04:23 PM
                                                                                    Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/29 03:05 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionstubar2009/01/29 04:49 PM
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                                                                                        Like Duhanon2009/01/29 07:42 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhanon2009/01/29 09:15 PM
                                                                                            Like Duhanon2009/02/01 07:18 PM
                                                                                              Double Duh.Anonymous2009/02/01 10:58 PM
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                                                                                                  Double Duh.Anonymous2009/02/02 05:11 PM
                                                                                                    Double Duh.anon2009/02/02 07:33 PM
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                                                                                                Like Duhpeter2009/02/01 11:55 PM
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                                                                                                  Terminology seems too fuzzy to mehobold2009/02/02 06:14 AM
                                                                                                    Terminology seems too fuzzy to merwessel2009/02/02 12:33 PM
                                                                                                      good summaryMichael S2009/02/03 02:41 AM
                                                                                                        good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 09:57 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryHoward Chu2009/02/03 10:21 AM
                                                                                                            good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 11:18 AM
                                                                                                              good summaryHoward Chu2009/02/03 12:00 PM
                                                                                                                good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 12:36 PM
                                                                                                          good summaryRagingDragon2009/02/03 10:39 PM
                                                                                                            good summaryrwessel2009/02/03 11:03 PM
                                                                                                              good summaryRagingDragon2009/02/03 11:46 PM
                                                                                                      Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker2009/02/04 05:06 PM
                                                                                                        Terminology seems too fuzzy to meMichael S2009/02/05 01:05 AM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meUngo2009/02/05 01:15 PM
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                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous2009/01/29 08:13 PM
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                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/30 05:50 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionEtienne Lehnart2009/01/30 12:22 AM
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                                                                                              Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous2009/01/31 12:22 AM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel2009/01/31 12:56 AM
                                                                                                  ScalingDean Kent2009/01/31 09:04 AM
                                                                                                    ScalingRob Thorpe2009/02/02 02:39 AM
                                                                                                      Scalingrwessel2009/02/02 11:41 AM
                                                                                                        ScalingHoward Chu2009/02/02 12:30 PM
                                                                                                          ScalingDean Kent2009/02/02 02:27 PM
                                                                                                            ScalingRob Thorpe2009/02/03 05:08 AM
                                                                                                              ScalingDean Kent2009/02/03 07:38 AM
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                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleHoward Chu2009/02/03 12:03 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon2009/02/03 11:00 PM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleMichael S2009/02/04 06:46 AM
                                                                                                            in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon2009/02/04 09:33 PM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleDean Kent2009/02/03 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 12:24 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleVincent Diepeveen2009/02/04 10:43 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scalerwessel2009/02/03 02:44 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleanon2009/02/04 02:35 AM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleCarlie Coats2009/02/04 05:24 AM
                                                                                                      Scaling with time vs. scaling from the beginning.mpx2009/02/05 01:57 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionMichael S2009/01/31 10:33 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/31 10:37 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB2009/01/31 08:11 AM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/31 11:43 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB2009/01/31 04:37 PM
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                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/02/02 02:44 PM
                                                                    The File AbstractionRob Thorpe2009/01/27 11:20 AM
                                                              The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/27 12:28 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionMichael S2009/01/27 03:00 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/27 08:30 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionAndi Kleen2009/01/27 02:05 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCMichel2009/01/12 06:54 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/12 07:38 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/13 12:52 AM
                                      SLC vs. MLCUngo2009/01/13 03:04 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCWes Felter2009/01/13 05:42 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCTruePath2009/01/25 05:05 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCUngo2008/08/21 12:54 PM
                    SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:20 PM
                  MLC vs. SLCMichael S2008/08/21 08:57 AM
                First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 10:40 AM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink2008/08/21 03:18 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsEtienne Lehnart2008/08/20 04:38 AM
  Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W2008/08/19 10:10 PM
    Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann2008/08/20 12:28 AM
      Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W2008/08/20 03:42 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?David Kanter2008/08/21 01:13 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Joe Chang2008/08/21 06:54 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?asdf2008/08/22 01:18 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/22 07:54 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann2008/08/22 09:48 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W2008/08/24 01:06 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S2008/08/24 04:19 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/24 09:30 AM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Paul2008/08/24 11:16 AM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/24 12:37 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S2008/08/25 12:53 AM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/22 10:19 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?aaron spink2008/08/23 02:56 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S2008/08/23 09:58 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/23 01:51 PM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/23 01:55 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Aaron Spink2008/08/23 04:52 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous2008/08/23 05:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/23 06:12 PM
                    Off road and topicEduardoS2008/08/23 06:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/23 06:26 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/23 09:40 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous2008/08/24 01:46 AM
                  Off road and topicDavid W. Hess2008/08/24 03:24 AM
                    Off road and topicAaron Spink2008/08/24 04:14 AM
  Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel2008/08/22 06:30 AM
    Beckton vs. Dunningtonjokerman2008/08/22 12:12 PM
    Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel2009/05/29 10:16 AM
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How do you spell green?