SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latency

By: anon (anon.delete@this.anon.com), September 12, 2008 12:00 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Anonymous (no@spam.com) on 9/11/08 wrote:
---------------------------
>anon (anon@anon.com) on 9/11/08 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>Anonymous (no@spam.com) on 9/11/08 wrote:
>>---------------------------
>>>Linus Torvalds (torvalds@linux-foundation.org) on 9/10/08 wrote:
>>>---------------------------
>>>>Michael S (already5chosen@yahoo.com) on 9/10/08 wrote:
>>>>>The only case where write latency matters is a data
>>>>>retention during sudden loss of power, but that's vendor's
>>>>>problem, not ours. At least I hope so.
>>>>
>>>>See above: your buffers will fill up.
>>>>
>>>>And if you think a few hundred ms is unrealistic for a
>>>>GC event, you're very naive!
>>>
>>>Sorry Linus, but you are wrong.
>>>
>>>To cover write *latency* you only need a few things.
>>>
>>>1 - the ability to lie about data committed state (already common)
>>
>>This conflicts with the even more fundamental requirement of having a non-broken
>>system. Just because some nasty HDDs might lie about this (and maybe SSDs too, I
>>don't know), that doesn't actually mean it is a solution.
>>
>>If you want a solution where you are happy without any data integrity, then why
>>would you even bother flushing writes from the OS's caches?
>
>Sigh, it is trivial to store enough energy in the flash unit to commit the buffers
>to flash on loss of power, which is what many HDDs do right now anyway, problems with that?

Well that's not lying then, is it?

Do you have any documentation or evidence of this happening in SSDs anyway?



>>>2 - the ability to service reads directly from the write buffer hierarchy (not difficult)
>>
>>Why would you need this? The OS already has that data cached so reads will be serviced
>>from there. The only way this would even do anything is if you have multiple processes
>>performing direct-IO on the same blocks. But similarly to the OS, something like
>>a database would not do such a thing, and if you have two non-cooperating processes
>>doing IO to the same blocks, something is likely screwed up anyway.
>
>So, what exactly do you do with situations where the OS does NOT do that? (ie:
>anythgin useing direct disk access APIs?) fall over flat on your face?

Why would you have multiple applications doing direct disk access (one or more of which is writing) to a device? I have a hard time thinking anybody would ever care about that.


>>Are you just making up these requirements off the top of you head? Or do you have some in depth knowledge of the area?
>
>Quite a bit more than you it seems.

OK, so tell me why it is such a win to forward in-progress writes to reads? Give a concrete example of an application or system that would require that to be fast.
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TopicPosted ByDate
First Dunnington benchmark resultsMichael S2008/08/19 10:54 AM
  First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/19 01:42 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Apink2008/08/19 05:49 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/19 06:28 PM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 09:49 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 03:10 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 06:42 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 07:12 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 09:45 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:12 PM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 03:15 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 02:59 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsAnders Jensen2008/08/20 03:26 AM
        +SSDAnders Jensen2008/08/20 03:30 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 11:04 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsslacker2008/08/20 12:35 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsDoug Siebert2008/08/20 07:54 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 08:58 PM
                SLC vs. MLCDavid Kanter2008/08/21 01:16 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/08/21 06:25 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCRichard Cownie2008/08/21 06:32 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/21 08:39 AM
                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/08/21 09:07 AM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/21 09:52 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/08/21 10:35 AM
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                              OLTP appliance = HP NonStop?Michael S2008/08/21 12:03 PM
                                OLTP applianceJoe Chang2008/08/21 03:33 PM
                                  OLTP appliancePotatoswatter2008/08/21 03:59 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:29 PM
                          SLC vs. MLCDan Downs2008/08/21 11:33 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCrwessel2008/08/21 12:45 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCDan Downs2008/08/22 08:21 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:34 PM
                          SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMpgerassi2008/08/21 12:24 PM
                            SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMDavid Kanter2008/08/22 01:31 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCGroo2008/08/23 12:52 PM
                      SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert2008/08/21 06:14 PM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/22 08:05 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert2008/08/22 02:27 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCEduardoS2008/08/22 06:26 PM
                            SSD Controller differentiationDavid Kanter2008/08/22 09:35 PM
                              SSD Controller differentiationDoug Siebert2008/08/22 10:34 PM
                                SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)anon2008/08/23 10:18 AM
                                  SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)Doug Siebert2008/08/23 10:40 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/23 10:50 AM
                              SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/08 12:03 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/08 01:51 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/08 09:04 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/08 10:29 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/09 12:12 AM
                                        RAM vs SSD?Jouni Osmala2008/09/09 01:06 AM
                                          RAM vs SSD?Max2008/09/12 12:51 PM
                                            RAM vs SSD?EduardoS2008/09/12 04:27 PM
                                            Disk cache snapshottingMax2008/09/13 08:34 AM
                                              Disk cache snapshottingHoward Chu2008/09/14 09:58 PM
                                                Disk cache snapshottingMax2008/09/15 12:50 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/09 07:43 AM
                                          SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/09 09:42 AM
                                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/09 10:39 AM
                                              SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 12:29 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCanon2008/09/10 02:51 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 03:09 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/10 04:48 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 05:52 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/10 06:28 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/09/10 06:21 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:17 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCanon2008/09/10 06:29 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:23 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/09/10 10:45 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/10 07:25 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:54 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/10 10:31 AM
                                                      Physical vs effective write latencyMax2008/09/11 07:35 AM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 09:06 AM
                                                          Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 09:48 AM
                                                            Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 11:39 AM
                                                              Physical vs effective write latencyMark Roulo2008/09/11 12:18 PM
                                                                Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:59 PM
                                                                  Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 07:16 PM
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                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyMS2009/02/03 03:06 PM
                                                  SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/11 12:39 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/11 01:17 PM
                                                      SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/11 05:25 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:47 PM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyrwessel2008/09/11 06:01 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/12 12:00 AM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/12 08:52 PM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/13 10:06 AM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyUngo2008/09/15 12:18 PM
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                                                                To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveHoward Chu2008/09/22 04:02 AM
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                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Ungo2008/09/22 12:27 PM
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                                                                        4K sectorsDaniel2008/09/22 10:31 PM
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                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel2008/09/22 10:09 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsHoward Chu2008/09/23 02:50 AM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel2008/09/22 10:40 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel2008/09/23 09:11 AM
                                                                            Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel2008/09/23 12:10 PM
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                                                                        HDD long sector size availabilityrwessel2008/09/23 09:19 AM
                                                                          HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart2008/09/23 02:17 PM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Jouni Osmala2008/09/22 11:16 PM
                                                                  To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveWes Felter2008/09/22 11:25 AM
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                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyMichael S2008/09/12 04:58 AM
                                                        overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/12 04:59 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read David W. Hess2008/09/12 09:56 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read Anonymous2008/09/12 08:45 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Jouni Osmala2008/09/12 11:56 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/13 11:29 AM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/13 12:09 PM
                                                              overlapped erase and read Linus Torvalds2008/09/13 02:05 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:31 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCEduardoS2008/09/08 02:07 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/08 02:30 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCEduardoS2008/09/08 04:01 PM
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                                        SSD and RAIDDoug Siebert2008/09/08 09:46 PM
                                          SSD and RAIDAaron Spink2008/09/09 04:27 PM
                                            SSD and RAIDGroo2008/09/10 01:02 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/06 10:22 AM
                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/06 02:04 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/06 03:24 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/06 04:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCanonymous2009/01/06 05:17 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/06 05:58 PM
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                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/06 06:09 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/06 07:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/07 12:26 AM
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                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/07 12:52 AM
                                        SLC vs. MLCanon2009/01/07 02:34 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCIntelUser20002009/01/07 07:43 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/07 10:28 AM
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                                                    The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/25 01:49 PM
                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 09:23 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionMichael S2009/01/26 01:39 PM
                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 02:31 PM
                                                            The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/26 03:06 PM
                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 04:29 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMark Christiansen2009/01/27 09:24 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionMark Christiansen2009/01/27 10:14 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/27 10:15 AM
                                                                    The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/27 11:20 AM
                                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/27 01:16 PM
                                                                        Attributes All The Way DownMark Christiansen2009/01/27 02:17 PM
                                                                        The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/27 05:25 PM
                                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/28 08:17 AM
                                                                            The File Abstraction: API thoughtsCarlie Coats2009/01/28 09:35 AM
                                                                            The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/28 10:09 AM
                                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/28 01:44 PM
                                                                                Programs already 'hide' their metadata in the bytestream, unbeknownst to usersanon2009/01/28 09:28 PM
                                                                                The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/29 10:39 AM
                                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/29 11:08 AM
                                                                                    The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/29 11:49 AM
                                                                                      The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/29 02:58 PM
                                                                                        The File Abstractionrwessel2009/01/29 04:23 PM
                                                                                    Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/29 03:05 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionstubar2009/01/29 04:49 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionLinus Torvalds2009/01/29 05:15 PM
                                                                                        Like Duhanon2009/01/29 07:42 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhanon2009/01/29 09:15 PM
                                                                                            Like Duhanon2009/02/01 07:18 PM
                                                                                              Double Duh.Anonymous2009/02/01 10:58 PM
                                                                                                Double Duh.anon2009/02/02 02:08 AM
                                                                                                  Double Duh.Anonymous2009/02/02 05:11 PM
                                                                                                    Double Duh.anon2009/02/02 07:33 PM
                                                                                              Like DuhDavid Kanter2009/02/01 11:05 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhpeter2009/02/01 11:55 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhanon2009/02/02 01:55 AM
                                                                                                Xattrs, Solar power, regulation and politicsRob Thorpe2009/02/02 04:36 AM
                                                                                                  Terminology seems too fuzzy to mehobold2009/02/02 06:14 AM
                                                                                                    Terminology seems too fuzzy to merwessel2009/02/02 12:33 PM
                                                                                                      good summaryMichael S2009/02/03 02:41 AM
                                                                                                        good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 09:57 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryHoward Chu2009/02/03 10:21 AM
                                                                                                            good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 11:18 AM
                                                                                                              good summaryHoward Chu2009/02/03 12:00 PM
                                                                                                                good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 12:36 PM
                                                                                                          good summaryRagingDragon2009/02/03 10:39 PM
                                                                                                            good summaryrwessel2009/02/03 11:03 PM
                                                                                                              good summaryRagingDragon2009/02/03 11:46 PM
                                                                                                      Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker2009/02/04 05:06 PM
                                                                                                        Terminology seems too fuzzy to meMichael S2009/02/05 01:05 AM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meUngo2009/02/05 01:15 PM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker2009/02/05 02:19 PM
                                                                                                            Terminology seems too fuzzy to meHoward Chu2009/02/05 04:44 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhiz2009/01/30 02:03 AM
                                                                                          EAs (security labels) hosed me badlyanon2009/01/30 09:48 PM
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                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous2009/01/29 08:13 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/29 09:38 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/30 11:24 AM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/30 05:50 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionEtienne Lehnart2009/01/30 12:22 AM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionRob Thorpe2009/01/30 12:39 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/30 01:16 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/30 06:03 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/30 11:22 PM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel2009/01/31 12:08 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous2009/01/31 12:22 AM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel2009/01/31 12:56 AM
                                                                                                  ScalingDean Kent2009/01/31 09:04 AM
                                                                                                    ScalingRob Thorpe2009/02/02 02:39 AM
                                                                                                      Scalingrwessel2009/02/02 11:41 AM
                                                                                                        ScalingHoward Chu2009/02/02 12:30 PM
                                                                                                          ScalingDean Kent2009/02/02 02:27 PM
                                                                                                            ScalingRob Thorpe2009/02/03 05:08 AM
                                                                                                              ScalingDean Kent2009/02/03 07:38 AM
                                                                                                              Scalingrwessel2009/02/03 02:34 PM
                                                                                                                ScalingRagingDragon2009/02/03 10:46 PM
                                                                                                    in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 11:27 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleHoward Chu2009/02/03 12:03 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon2009/02/03 11:00 PM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleMichael S2009/02/04 06:46 AM
                                                                                                            in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon2009/02/04 09:33 PM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleDean Kent2009/02/03 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 12:24 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleVincent Diepeveen2009/02/04 10:43 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scalerwessel2009/02/03 02:44 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleanon2009/02/04 02:35 AM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleCarlie Coats2009/02/04 05:24 AM
                                                                                                      Scaling with time vs. scaling from the beginning.mpx2009/02/05 01:57 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionMichael S2009/01/31 10:33 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/31 10:37 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB2009/01/31 08:11 AM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/31 11:43 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB2009/01/31 04:37 PM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/02/02 02:42 PM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/02/02 02:44 PM
                                                                    The File AbstractionRob Thorpe2009/01/27 11:20 AM
                                                              The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/27 12:28 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionMichael S2009/01/27 03:00 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/27 08:30 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionAndi Kleen2009/01/27 02:05 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCMichel2009/01/12 06:54 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/12 07:38 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/13 12:52 AM
                                      SLC vs. MLCUngo2009/01/13 03:04 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCWes Felter2009/01/13 05:42 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCTruePath2009/01/25 05:05 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCUngo2008/08/21 12:54 PM
                    SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:20 PM
                  MLC vs. SLCMichael S2008/08/21 08:57 AM
                First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 10:40 AM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink2008/08/21 03:18 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsEtienne Lehnart2008/08/20 04:38 AM
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              Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/23 01:51 PM
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                    Off road and topicEduardoS2008/08/23 06:28 PM
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                  Off road and topicDavid W. Hess2008/08/24 03:24 AM
                    Off road and topicAaron Spink2008/08/24 04:14 AM
  Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel2008/08/22 06:30 AM
    Beckton vs. Dunningtonjokerman2008/08/22 12:12 PM
    Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel2009/05/29 10:16 AM
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