The File Abstraction

By: Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org), January 26, 2009 2:31 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Michael S (already5chosen@yahoo.com) on 1/26/09 wrote:
>
>In fact, downloading a _text_ file over FTP to/from VMS
>works just fine. Last time I tried to do the same with
>binary files there were issues but I used _very_old_
>version of VMS (about 5.3, when AFAIR VAX is supported up
>to version 7.1, IPF and Alpha are currently in
>8.something).

Umm. I'm not talking text vs binary. I'm talking about
things like "80-character fixed record-size with index"
files or the other insanities that VMS supported in its
filesystem. Copy one of those over, and it really doesn't
work.

>Well, I don't know much about VMS, but supposedly backup
>command takes care of that sort of issues.

Umm. That's kind of my point. Do you really want to
be tied to one magic system command that knows about all
the insane file layout things that the operating system
can support?

What about moving files between different operating systems?

What about moving them even within the same system,
but across different filesystems?

The fact is, people have done idiotic filesystems
like that. VMS was just one example. And it's stupid. It's
incredibly annoying, and it makes a simple program to
copy a file suddenly a hugely complicated thing.

End result: the operating system may actually support
lots of odd file formats, but people won't actually use
them, because using them is too painful and too unportable.
So you end up using just "binary" and "text' files, and
even that is a huge pain.

UNIX got this right. You don't have any file types. You
have streams of bytes, and then you can put organization
on top of that stable setup.

Of course, filesystem people decided that they want to
screw up and do all those "extended attributes" etc, but
at least the damage is mostly contained thanks to people
not relying on them - because they can't. So only crazy
people use extended attributes.

>And, of course, even on Linux/Unix/Windows world to
>transfer things around people much more often rely on
>tar+zip or version control than on binary copy.

You really don't seem to know a lot about the whole insane
VMS filesystem. Trust me, you can't even tar it up.

Under unix, you can copy a file with just about anything
you want. Yes, you can use tar/zip, but you can also do
your own program that reads things one byte at a time, or
use "cat" or anything like that. And it's an absolutely
immense advantage.

Under VMS? Yeah, you'd better use the system "copy" command.

Of course, the good news is that nobody writes programs
for VMS, so nobody cares. There really is only a single
program that can copy things, and nobody will ever even try
to use anything else.

But did you ever wonder why nobody wrote programs
for VMS? They sometimes get ported to VMS (and then hit
the whole text-vs-binary issue, but never see any of the
really odd crap), but nobody sane ever used VMS as such.

>Just want to point out that the problems created by
>higher-level abstraction, at least in particular
>case of VMS are not nearly as serious as you presented >them.

It seriously sounds like you have never encountered a file
that actually used records and indexing.

It's entirely possible that people have learnt from their
mistakes and stopped using them, and that you can use
VMS as if they never existed. But the thing was a total
disaster from a system standpoint.

Linus
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TopicPosted ByDate
First Dunnington benchmark resultsMichael S2008/08/19 10:54 AM
  First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/19 01:42 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Apink2008/08/19 05:49 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/19 06:28 PM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 09:49 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 03:10 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 06:42 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 07:12 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 09:45 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:12 PM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 03:15 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 02:59 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsAnders Jensen2008/08/20 03:26 AM
        +SSDAnders Jensen2008/08/20 03:30 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 11:04 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsslacker2008/08/20 12:35 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsDoug Siebert2008/08/20 07:54 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 08:58 PM
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                  SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/08/21 06:25 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCRichard Cownie2008/08/21 06:32 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/21 08:39 AM
                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/08/21 09:07 AM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/21 09:52 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/08/21 10:35 AM
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                          SLC vs. MLCDan Downs2008/08/21 11:33 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCrwessel2008/08/21 12:45 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCDan Downs2008/08/22 08:21 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:34 PM
                          SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMpgerassi2008/08/21 12:24 PM
                            SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMDavid Kanter2008/08/22 01:31 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCGroo2008/08/23 12:52 PM
                      SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert2008/08/21 06:14 PM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/22 08:05 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert2008/08/22 02:27 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCEduardoS2008/08/22 06:26 PM
                            SSD Controller differentiationDavid Kanter2008/08/22 09:35 PM
                              SSD Controller differentiationDoug Siebert2008/08/22 10:34 PM
                                SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)anon2008/08/23 10:18 AM
                                  SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)Doug Siebert2008/08/23 10:40 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/23 10:50 AM
                              SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/08 12:03 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/08 01:51 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/08 09:04 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/08 10:29 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/09 12:12 AM
                                        RAM vs SSD?Jouni Osmala2008/09/09 01:06 AM
                                          RAM vs SSD?Max2008/09/12 12:51 PM
                                            RAM vs SSD?EduardoS2008/09/12 04:27 PM
                                            Disk cache snapshottingMax2008/09/13 08:34 AM
                                              Disk cache snapshottingHoward Chu2008/09/14 09:58 PM
                                                Disk cache snapshottingMax2008/09/15 12:50 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/09 07:43 AM
                                          SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/09 09:42 AM
                                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/09 10:39 AM
                                              SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 12:29 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCanon2008/09/10 02:51 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 03:09 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/10 04:48 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 05:52 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/10 06:28 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/09/10 06:21 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:17 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCanon2008/09/10 06:29 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:23 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/09/10 10:45 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/10 07:25 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:54 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/10 10:31 AM
                                                      Physical vs effective write latencyMax2008/09/11 07:35 AM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 09:06 AM
                                                          Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 09:48 AM
                                                            Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 11:39 AM
                                                              Physical vs effective write latencyMark Roulo2008/09/11 12:18 PM
                                                                Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:59 PM
                                                                  Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 07:16 PM
                                                                    Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 10:28 PM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyMS2009/02/03 03:06 PM
                                                  SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/11 12:39 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/11 01:17 PM
                                                      SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/11 05:25 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:47 PM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyrwessel2008/09/11 06:01 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/12 12:00 AM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/12 08:52 PM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/13 10:06 AM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyUngo2008/09/15 12:18 PM
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                                                                To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveHoward Chu2008/09/22 04:02 AM
                                                                  To SSD or not? Real data..Linus Torvalds2008/09/22 07:33 AM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Ungo2008/09/22 12:27 PM
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                                                                        4K sectorsDaniel2008/09/22 10:31 PM
                                                                      Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDoug Siebert2008/09/22 09:38 PM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel2008/09/22 10:09 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsHoward Chu2008/09/23 02:50 AM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel2008/09/22 10:40 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel2008/09/23 09:11 AM
                                                                            Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel2008/09/23 12:10 PM
                                                                      HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart2008/09/23 05:32 AM
                                                                        HDD long sector size availabilityrwessel2008/09/23 09:19 AM
                                                                          HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart2008/09/23 02:17 PM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Jouni Osmala2008/09/22 11:16 PM
                                                                  To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveWes Felter2008/09/22 11:25 AM
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                                                                  How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Craighead2008/09/23 06:59 PM
                                                                    How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Sayler2008/09/24 04:17 AM
                                                            ATA/SCSIS, Write Flushes and Asych FilesystemsTruePath2009/01/25 04:44 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyMichael S2008/09/12 04:58 AM
                                                        overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/12 04:59 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read David W. Hess2008/09/12 09:56 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read Anonymous2008/09/12 08:45 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Jouni Osmala2008/09/12 11:56 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/13 11:29 AM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/13 12:09 PM
                                                              overlapped erase and read Linus Torvalds2008/09/13 02:05 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:31 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCEduardoS2008/09/08 02:07 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/08 02:30 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCEduardoS2008/09/08 04:01 PM
                                      SSD and RAIDJoe Chang2008/09/08 07:42 PM
                                        SSD and RAIDDoug Siebert2008/09/08 09:46 PM
                                          SSD and RAIDAaron Spink2008/09/09 04:27 PM
                                            SSD and RAIDGroo2008/09/10 01:02 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/06 10:22 AM
                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/06 02:04 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/06 03:24 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/06 04:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCanonymous2009/01/06 05:17 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/06 05:58 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/07 12:35 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/06 05:45 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/06 06:09 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/06 07:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/07 12:26 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCanon2009/01/06 08:23 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/07 12:52 AM
                                        SLC vs. MLCanon2009/01/07 02:34 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCIntelUser20002009/01/07 07:43 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/07 10:28 AM
                                      drop data filesystem semanticDoug Siebert2009/01/09 12:21 PM
                                      FTL and FSiz2009/01/09 07:49 PM
                                        FTL and FSLinus Torvalds2009/01/09 09:53 PM
                                          FTL and FSiz2009/01/10 02:09 AM
                                            FTL and FSMichael S2009/01/10 03:19 PM
                                              compiling large programsiz2009/01/10 05:51 PM
                                                compiling large programsLinus Torvalds2009/01/10 07:58 PM
                                                  compiling large programspeter2009/01/11 05:30 AM
                                                  compiling large programsAndi Kleen2009/01/11 01:03 PM
                                                  The File AbstractionTruePath2009/01/25 06:45 AM
                                                    The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/25 01:49 PM
                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 09:23 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionMichael S2009/01/26 01:39 PM
                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 02:31 PM
                                                            The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/26 03:06 PM
                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 04:29 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMark Christiansen2009/01/27 09:24 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionMark Christiansen2009/01/27 10:14 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/27 10:15 AM
                                                                    The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/27 11:20 AM
                                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/27 01:16 PM
                                                                        Attributes All The Way DownMark Christiansen2009/01/27 02:17 PM
                                                                        The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/27 05:25 PM
                                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/28 08:17 AM
                                                                            The File Abstraction: API thoughtsCarlie Coats2009/01/28 09:35 AM
                                                                            The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/28 10:09 AM
                                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/28 01:44 PM
                                                                                Programs already 'hide' their metadata in the bytestream, unbeknownst to usersanon2009/01/28 09:28 PM
                                                                                The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/29 10:39 AM
                                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/29 11:08 AM
                                                                                    The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/29 11:49 AM
                                                                                      The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/29 02:58 PM
                                                                                        The File Abstractionrwessel2009/01/29 04:23 PM
                                                                                    Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/29 03:05 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionstubar2009/01/29 04:49 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionLinus Torvalds2009/01/29 05:15 PM
                                                                                        Like Duhanon2009/01/29 07:42 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhanon2009/01/29 09:15 PM
                                                                                            Like Duhanon2009/02/01 07:18 PM
                                                                                              Double Duh.Anonymous2009/02/01 10:58 PM
                                                                                                Double Duh.anon2009/02/02 02:08 AM
                                                                                                  Double Duh.Anonymous2009/02/02 05:11 PM
                                                                                                    Double Duh.anon2009/02/02 07:33 PM
                                                                                              Like DuhDavid Kanter2009/02/01 11:05 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhpeter2009/02/01 11:55 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhanon2009/02/02 01:55 AM
                                                                                                Xattrs, Solar power, regulation and politicsRob Thorpe2009/02/02 04:36 AM
                                                                                                  Terminology seems too fuzzy to mehobold2009/02/02 06:14 AM
                                                                                                    Terminology seems too fuzzy to merwessel2009/02/02 12:33 PM
                                                                                                      good summaryMichael S2009/02/03 02:41 AM
                                                                                                        good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 09:57 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryHoward Chu2009/02/03 10:21 AM
                                                                                                            good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 11:18 AM
                                                                                                              good summaryHoward Chu2009/02/03 12:00 PM
                                                                                                                good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 12:36 PM
                                                                                                          good summaryRagingDragon2009/02/03 10:39 PM
                                                                                                            good summaryrwessel2009/02/03 11:03 PM
                                                                                                              good summaryRagingDragon2009/02/03 11:46 PM
                                                                                                      Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker2009/02/04 05:06 PM
                                                                                                        Terminology seems too fuzzy to meMichael S2009/02/05 01:05 AM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meUngo2009/02/05 01:15 PM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker2009/02/05 02:19 PM
                                                                                                            Terminology seems too fuzzy to meHoward Chu2009/02/05 04:44 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhiz2009/01/30 02:03 AM
                                                                                          EAs (security labels) hosed me badlyanon2009/01/30 09:48 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in ActionRagingDragon2009/01/29 09:31 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous2009/01/29 08:13 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/29 09:38 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/30 11:24 AM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/30 05:50 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionEtienne Lehnart2009/01/30 12:22 AM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionRob Thorpe2009/01/30 12:39 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/30 01:16 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/30 06:03 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/30 11:22 PM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel2009/01/31 12:08 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous2009/01/31 12:22 AM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel2009/01/31 12:56 AM
                                                                                                  ScalingDean Kent2009/01/31 09:04 AM
                                                                                                    ScalingRob Thorpe2009/02/02 02:39 AM
                                                                                                      Scalingrwessel2009/02/02 11:41 AM
                                                                                                        ScalingHoward Chu2009/02/02 12:30 PM
                                                                                                          ScalingDean Kent2009/02/02 02:27 PM
                                                                                                            ScalingRob Thorpe2009/02/03 05:08 AM
                                                                                                              ScalingDean Kent2009/02/03 07:38 AM
                                                                                                              Scalingrwessel2009/02/03 02:34 PM
                                                                                                                ScalingRagingDragon2009/02/03 10:46 PM
                                                                                                    in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 11:27 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleHoward Chu2009/02/03 12:03 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon2009/02/03 11:00 PM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleMichael S2009/02/04 06:46 AM
                                                                                                            in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon2009/02/04 09:33 PM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleDean Kent2009/02/03 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 12:24 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleVincent Diepeveen2009/02/04 10:43 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scalerwessel2009/02/03 02:44 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleanon2009/02/04 02:35 AM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleCarlie Coats2009/02/04 05:24 AM
                                                                                                      Scaling with time vs. scaling from the beginning.mpx2009/02/05 01:57 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionMichael S2009/01/31 10:33 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/31 10:37 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB2009/01/31 08:11 AM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/31 11:43 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB2009/01/31 04:37 PM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/02/02 02:42 PM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/02/02 02:44 PM
                                                                    The File AbstractionRob Thorpe2009/01/27 11:20 AM
                                                              The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/27 12:28 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionMichael S2009/01/27 03:00 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/27 08:30 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionAndi Kleen2009/01/27 02:05 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCMichel2009/01/12 06:54 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/12 07:38 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/13 12:52 AM
                                      SLC vs. MLCUngo2009/01/13 03:04 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCWes Felter2009/01/13 05:42 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCTruePath2009/01/25 05:05 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCUngo2008/08/21 12:54 PM
                    SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:20 PM
                  MLC vs. SLCMichael S2008/08/21 08:57 AM
                First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 10:40 AM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink2008/08/21 03:18 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsEtienne Lehnart2008/08/20 04:38 AM
  Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W2008/08/19 10:10 PM
    Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann2008/08/20 12:28 AM
      Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W2008/08/20 03:42 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?David Kanter2008/08/21 01:13 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Joe Chang2008/08/21 06:54 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?asdf2008/08/22 01:18 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/22 07:54 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann2008/08/22 09:48 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W2008/08/24 01:06 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S2008/08/24 04:19 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/24 09:30 AM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Paul2008/08/24 11:16 AM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/24 12:37 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S2008/08/25 12:53 AM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/22 10:19 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?aaron spink2008/08/23 02:56 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S2008/08/23 09:58 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/23 01:51 PM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/23 01:55 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Aaron Spink2008/08/23 04:52 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous2008/08/23 05:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/23 06:12 PM
                    Off road and topicEduardoS2008/08/23 06:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/23 06:26 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/23 09:40 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous2008/08/24 01:46 AM
                  Off road and topicDavid W. Hess2008/08/24 03:24 AM
                    Off road and topicAaron Spink2008/08/24 04:14 AM
  Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel2008/08/22 06:30 AM
    Beckton vs. Dunningtonjokerman2008/08/22 12:12 PM
    Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel2009/05/29 10:16 AM
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How do you spell green?