Attributes All The Way Down

By: Mark Christiansen (aliasundercover.delete@this.nothereeither.com), January 27, 2009 2:17 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds@linux-foundation.org) on 1/27/09 wrote:


But then do the extended attributes need their own extended attributes?

I first thought about all this reading how Next handled things like the icons for an application. Their desktop software would look in directories and understood where to find the executable, icons and other associated resources in ordinary files. It all seemed very clever, to fit well in the Unix tradition.

One thing it doesn't do is automagically support old unaware applications which look to just open a file. Presented with a directory instead they would simply fail not knowing the protocol for which file in that directory is the default data. Or perhaps they messed with the meaning of file opens at the library level to give awareness to many old programs with minimal source changes, I never actually used a Next.

Naive programs could be served and arbitrary attachments to any file could be supported by turning every file optionally into both a file and a directory. Do an open and read/write to the file and you get a plain old byte stream. Open it as a directory and you get the listing of its member files and subdirectories. That listing may well be empty for a plain old file with no decoration. Inside the files and subdirectories are all just the same, each may or may not have a stream of bytes, each may or may not have named nodes farther down the tree. Copy would be a plain old recursive copy. At the top level one can understand the whole as one thing, internally complicated but just one thing none the less.

What would you do with it? It would make attaching other stuff to a file easy. A lot of the wish for extended attributes amounts to wanting to attach things to a file and have them stay with that file without affecting the other software which also uses the file.

There is always a snake and I can spot two right up front though there are probably more. One is using this for security purposes would introduce enormous complication as permission to mess with those security tags would necessarily be different from accessing and changing the ordinary data. The other snake is coordinating names, different independent efforts to attach useful data to files would need to not collide in their choice of file names. That is I think a much easier problem.

Why not just use the system as is with explicit directories and forgo this idea of every file is a directory and every directory is a file? Well, yes, that is what I expect will happen. Still, it would be nice to have a simple uniform way to attach information to files and have it stay stuck. People keep coming back to extended attributes because they want this. If for some reason you want attributes for the attributes for the attributes it all just works, no special cases.

Ideas are of course cheap and no doubt others have thought of this too.
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                                          SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/09 09:42 AM
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                                                SLC vs. MLCanon2008/09/10 02:51 AM
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                                                        SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/10 06:28 AM
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                                                  The File AbstractionTruePath2009/01/25 06:45 AM
                                                    The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/25 01:49 PM
                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 09:23 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionMichael S2009/01/26 01:39 PM
                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 02:31 PM
                                                            The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/26 03:06 PM
                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 04:29 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMark Christiansen2009/01/27 09:24 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionMark Christiansen2009/01/27 10:14 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/27 10:15 AM
                                                                    The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/27 11:20 AM
                                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/27 01:16 PM
                                                                        Attributes All The Way DownMark Christiansen2009/01/27 02:17 PM
                                                                        The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/27 05:25 PM
                                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/28 08:17 AM
                                                                            The File Abstraction: API thoughtsCarlie Coats2009/01/28 09:35 AM
                                                                            The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/28 10:09 AM
                                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/28 01:44 PM
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                                                                                The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/29 10:39 AM
                                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/29 11:08 AM
                                                                                    The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/29 11:49 AM
                                                                                      The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/29 02:58 PM
                                                                                        The File Abstractionrwessel2009/01/29 04:23 PM
                                                                                    Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/29 03:05 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionstubar2009/01/29 04:49 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionLinus Torvalds2009/01/29 05:15 PM
                                                                                        Like Duhanon2009/01/29 07:42 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhanon2009/01/29 09:15 PM
                                                                                            Like Duhanon2009/02/01 07:18 PM
                                                                                              Double Duh.Anonymous2009/02/01 10:58 PM
                                                                                                Double Duh.anon2009/02/02 02:08 AM
                                                                                                  Double Duh.Anonymous2009/02/02 05:11 PM
                                                                                                    Double Duh.anon2009/02/02 07:33 PM
                                                                                              Like DuhDavid Kanter2009/02/01 11:05 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhpeter2009/02/01 11:55 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhanon2009/02/02 01:55 AM
                                                                                                Xattrs, Solar power, regulation and politicsRob Thorpe2009/02/02 04:36 AM
                                                                                                  Terminology seems too fuzzy to mehobold2009/02/02 06:14 AM
                                                                                                    Terminology seems too fuzzy to merwessel2009/02/02 12:33 PM
                                                                                                      good summaryMichael S2009/02/03 02:41 AM
                                                                                                        good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 09:57 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryHoward Chu2009/02/03 10:21 AM
                                                                                                            good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 11:18 AM
                                                                                                              good summaryHoward Chu2009/02/03 12:00 PM
                                                                                                                good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 12:36 PM
                                                                                                          good summaryRagingDragon2009/02/03 10:39 PM
                                                                                                            good summaryrwessel2009/02/03 11:03 PM
                                                                                                              good summaryRagingDragon2009/02/03 11:46 PM
                                                                                                      Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker2009/02/04 05:06 PM
                                                                                                        Terminology seems too fuzzy to meMichael S2009/02/05 01:05 AM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meUngo2009/02/05 01:15 PM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker2009/02/05 02:19 PM
                                                                                                            Terminology seems too fuzzy to meHoward Chu2009/02/05 04:44 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhiz2009/01/30 02:03 AM
                                                                                          EAs (security labels) hosed me badlyanon2009/01/30 09:48 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in ActionRagingDragon2009/01/29 09:31 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous2009/01/29 08:13 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/29 09:38 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/30 11:24 AM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/30 05:50 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionEtienne Lehnart2009/01/30 12:22 AM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionRob Thorpe2009/01/30 12:39 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/30 01:16 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/30 06:03 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/30 11:22 PM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel2009/01/31 12:08 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous2009/01/31 12:22 AM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel2009/01/31 12:56 AM
                                                                                                  ScalingDean Kent2009/01/31 09:04 AM
                                                                                                    ScalingRob Thorpe2009/02/02 02:39 AM
                                                                                                      Scalingrwessel2009/02/02 11:41 AM
                                                                                                        ScalingHoward Chu2009/02/02 12:30 PM
                                                                                                          ScalingDean Kent2009/02/02 02:27 PM
                                                                                                            ScalingRob Thorpe2009/02/03 05:08 AM
                                                                                                              ScalingDean Kent2009/02/03 07:38 AM
                                                                                                              Scalingrwessel2009/02/03 02:34 PM
                                                                                                                ScalingRagingDragon2009/02/03 10:46 PM
                                                                                                    in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 11:27 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleHoward Chu2009/02/03 12:03 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon2009/02/03 11:00 PM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleMichael S2009/02/04 06:46 AM
                                                                                                            in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon2009/02/04 09:33 PM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleDean Kent2009/02/03 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 12:24 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleVincent Diepeveen2009/02/04 10:43 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scalerwessel2009/02/03 02:44 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleanon2009/02/04 02:35 AM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleCarlie Coats2009/02/04 05:24 AM
                                                                                                      Scaling with time vs. scaling from the beginning.mpx2009/02/05 01:57 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionMichael S2009/01/31 10:33 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/31 10:37 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB2009/01/31 08:11 AM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/31 11:43 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB2009/01/31 04:37 PM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/02/02 02:42 PM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/02/02 02:44 PM
                                                                    The File AbstractionRob Thorpe2009/01/27 11:20 AM
                                                              The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/27 12:28 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionMichael S2009/01/27 03:00 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/27 08:30 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionAndi Kleen2009/01/27 02:05 AM
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                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/12 07:38 PM
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  Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel2008/08/22 06:30 AM
    Beckton vs. Dunningtonjokerman2008/08/22 12:12 PM
    Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel2009/05/29 10:16 AM
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