The File Abstraction

By: Linus Torvalds (torvalds.delete@this.linux-foundation.org), January 29, 2009 11:08 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
slacker (s@lack.er) on 1/29/09 wrote:
>
>I explain how this is a problem with virtually any sort of
>metadata, whether it's stuck in file headers, wrapped
>in to folders, inserted in to a xattrs, or shoved in to a
>database.

I ignore your argument, because your argument boils down to

 "some data formats are already insecure, so we might
as well make all data formats be so, and I'm not
even listening to your 'external database' suggestion".


I don't buy it. I don't see why you even claim it's an
argument in the first place, and why you think repeating it
makes it any better.

I work with source code. The data format is "secure".
And I've seen what xattrs do to it - they screw with
data that I considered to be mine, and reliable, and turned
it into something unreliable because it was changing my
files behind my back.

I hate applications like that - modifying my data
behind my back. I've told you why. I've told you how the
security implications were just a part of it. You've so
far been totally unable to respond to any of the arguments
in any sane manner.

So let me repeat: using an external database has absolutely
zero downsides compared to EAs:

- It's more reliable than EA's are (example: the
data doesn't go away just because some user unwittingly
rewrites the file).

- It's more secure than EA's are (example: that
same unwitting user won't by mistake expose that external
data that he doesn't know about).

- Yes, it requires you to use a special DB interface, but
hey, how much less convenient is that than using special
EA interfaces, really? It actually works across many
different platforms, so in the end it's likely less work
than EA's, even if EA's appear so convenient due
to the data "automatically" following the file (but not
really, as we have seen).

- And if you really want to make sure that the
extended attributes really always follows the data (which
is a big "if" to begin with), embedding them in the data
stream is still preferable to EA's, because of the
portability issues. Sure, you easily end up with the
same security issues, but that's not inevitable (many
formats really are transparent), and you don't seem to
see that the primary replacement for EA's isn't actually
this case at all, but the external database (which is
much more like EA's in behavior).

So your single argument seems to be that EA's aren't
a security issue. You repeat it over and over, never mind
that I've pointed out that it's a broken argument to begin
with, and wasn't the biggest problem anyway.

Gaah.

Linus
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TopicPosted ByDate
First Dunnington benchmark resultsMichael S2008/08/19 10:54 AM
  First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/19 01:42 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Apink2008/08/19 05:49 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/19 06:28 PM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 09:49 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 03:10 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 06:42 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 07:12 PM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 09:45 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:12 PM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsJoe Chang2008/08/21 03:15 PM
    First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 02:59 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsAnders Jensen2008/08/20 03:26 AM
        +SSDAnders Jensen2008/08/20 03:30 AM
        First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 11:04 AM
          First Dunnington benchmark resultsslacker2008/08/20 12:35 PM
            First Dunnington benchmark resultsDoug Siebert2008/08/20 07:54 PM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsRichard Cownie2008/08/20 08:58 PM
                SLC vs. MLCDavid Kanter2008/08/21 01:16 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/08/21 06:25 AM
                  SLC vs. MLCRichard Cownie2008/08/21 06:32 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/21 08:39 AM
                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/08/21 09:07 AM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/21 09:52 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/08/21 10:35 AM
                            OLTP appliance = mainframe? (NT)Potatoswatter2008/08/21 11:44 AM
                              OLTP appliance = HP NonStop?Michael S2008/08/21 12:03 PM
                                OLTP applianceJoe Chang2008/08/21 03:33 PM
                                  OLTP appliancePotatoswatter2008/08/21 03:59 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:29 PM
                          SLC vs. MLCDan Downs2008/08/21 11:33 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCrwessel2008/08/21 12:45 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCDan Downs2008/08/22 08:21 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:34 PM
                          SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMpgerassi2008/08/21 12:24 PM
                            SLC vs. MLC vs DRAMDavid Kanter2008/08/22 01:31 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCGroo2008/08/23 12:52 PM
                      SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert2008/08/21 06:14 PM
                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/22 08:05 AM
                          SLC vs. MLCDoug Siebert2008/08/22 02:27 PM
                            SLC vs. MLCEduardoS2008/08/22 06:26 PM
                            SSD Controller differentiationDavid Kanter2008/08/22 09:35 PM
                              SSD Controller differentiationDoug Siebert2008/08/22 10:34 PM
                                SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)anon2008/08/23 10:18 AM
                                  SSD Controller differentiation (supercaps, cost...)Doug Siebert2008/08/23 10:40 AM
                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/08/23 10:50 AM
                              SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/08 12:03 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/08 01:51 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/08 09:04 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/08 10:29 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/09 12:12 AM
                                        RAM vs SSD?Jouni Osmala2008/09/09 01:06 AM
                                          RAM vs SSD?Max2008/09/12 12:51 PM
                                            RAM vs SSD?EduardoS2008/09/12 04:27 PM
                                            Disk cache snapshottingMax2008/09/13 08:34 AM
                                              Disk cache snapshottingHoward Chu2008/09/14 09:58 PM
                                                Disk cache snapshottingMax2008/09/15 12:50 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/09 07:43 AM
                                          SLC vs. MLCHoward Chu2008/09/09 09:42 AM
                                            SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/09 10:39 AM
                                              SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 12:29 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCanon2008/09/10 02:51 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 03:09 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/10 04:48 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 05:52 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMax2008/09/10 06:28 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/09/10 06:21 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:17 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCanon2008/09/10 06:29 AM
                                                      SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:23 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLCMatt Sayler2008/09/10 10:45 AM
                                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/10 07:25 AM
                                                  SLC vs. MLCMichael S2008/09/10 09:54 AM
                                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/10 10:31 AM
                                                      Physical vs effective write latencyMax2008/09/11 07:35 AM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 09:06 AM
                                                          Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 09:48 AM
                                                            Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 11:39 AM
                                                              Physical vs effective write latencyMark Roulo2008/09/11 12:18 PM
                                                                Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:59 PM
                                                                  Physical vs effective write latencyLinus Torvalds2008/09/11 07:16 PM
                                                                    Physical vs effective write latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 10:28 PM
                                                        Physical vs effective write latencyMS2009/02/03 03:06 PM
                                                  SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/11 12:39 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/11 01:17 PM
                                                      SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/11 05:25 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:47 PM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyrwessel2008/09/11 06:01 PM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/12 12:00 AM
                                                          SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyAnonymous2008/09/12 08:52 PM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyanon2008/09/13 10:06 AM
                                                            SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyUngo2008/09/15 12:18 PM
                                                              To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveDavid Kanter2008/09/22 01:12 AM
                                                                To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveHoward Chu2008/09/22 04:02 AM
                                                                  To SSD or not? Real data..Linus Torvalds2008/09/22 07:33 AM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Ungo2008/09/22 12:27 PM
                                                                      4K sectorsWes Felter2008/09/22 06:03 PM
                                                                        4K sectorsDaniel2008/09/22 10:31 PM
                                                                      Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDoug Siebert2008/09/22 09:38 PM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel2008/09/22 10:09 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsHoward Chu2008/09/23 02:50 AM
                                                                        Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel2008/09/22 10:40 PM
                                                                          Reasons for >512 byte sectorsrwessel2008/09/23 09:11 AM
                                                                            Reasons for >512 byte sectorsDaniel2008/09/23 12:10 PM
                                                                      HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart2008/09/23 05:32 AM
                                                                        HDD long sector size availabilityrwessel2008/09/23 09:19 AM
                                                                          HDD long sector size availabilityEtienne Lehnart2008/09/23 02:17 PM
                                                                    To SSD or not? Real data..Jouni Osmala2008/09/22 11:16 PM
                                                                  To SSD or not? One lady's perspectiveWes Felter2008/09/22 11:25 AM
                                                                How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Rob Thorpe2008/09/22 02:01 PM
                                                                  How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Craighead2008/09/23 06:59 PM
                                                                    How should SSDs be engineered into systems?Matt Sayler2008/09/24 04:17 AM
                                                            ATA/SCSIS, Write Flushes and Asych FilesystemsTruePath2009/01/25 04:44 AM
                                                        SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyMichael S2008/09/12 04:58 AM
                                                        overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/12 04:59 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read David W. Hess2008/09/12 09:56 AM
                                                          overlapped erase and read Anonymous2008/09/12 08:45 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Jouni Osmala2008/09/12 11:56 PM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/13 11:29 AM
                                                            overlapped erase and read Michael S2008/09/13 12:09 PM
                                                              overlapped erase and read Linus Torvalds2008/09/13 02:05 PM
                                                    SLC vs. MLC - the trick to latencyDoug Siebert2008/09/11 05:31 PM
                                SLC vs. MLCEduardoS2008/09/08 02:07 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2008/09/08 02:30 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCEduardoS2008/09/08 04:01 PM
                                      SSD and RAIDJoe Chang2008/09/08 07:42 PM
                                        SSD and RAIDDoug Siebert2008/09/08 09:46 PM
                                          SSD and RAIDAaron Spink2008/09/09 04:27 PM
                                            SSD and RAIDGroo2008/09/10 01:02 PM
                              SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/06 10:22 AM
                                SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/06 02:04 PM
                                  SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/06 03:24 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/06 04:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCanonymous2009/01/06 05:17 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/06 05:58 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/07 12:35 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/06 05:45 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/06 06:09 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/06 07:47 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/07 12:26 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCanon2009/01/06 08:23 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCJoern Engel2009/01/07 12:52 AM
                                        SLC vs. MLCanon2009/01/07 02:34 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCIntelUser20002009/01/07 07:43 AM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/07 10:28 AM
                                      drop data filesystem semanticDoug Siebert2009/01/09 12:21 PM
                                      FTL and FSiz2009/01/09 07:49 PM
                                        FTL and FSLinus Torvalds2009/01/09 09:53 PM
                                          FTL and FSiz2009/01/10 02:09 AM
                                            FTL and FSMichael S2009/01/10 03:19 PM
                                              compiling large programsiz2009/01/10 05:51 PM
                                                compiling large programsLinus Torvalds2009/01/10 07:58 PM
                                                  compiling large programspeter2009/01/11 05:30 AM
                                                  compiling large programsAndi Kleen2009/01/11 01:03 PM
                                                  The File AbstractionTruePath2009/01/25 06:45 AM
                                                    The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/25 01:49 PM
                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 09:23 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionMichael S2009/01/26 01:39 PM
                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 02:31 PM
                                                            The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/26 03:06 PM
                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/26 04:29 PM
                                                                The File AbstractionMark Christiansen2009/01/27 09:24 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionMark Christiansen2009/01/27 10:14 AM
                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/27 10:15 AM
                                                                    The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/27 11:20 AM
                                                                      The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/27 01:16 PM
                                                                        Attributes All The Way DownMark Christiansen2009/01/27 02:17 PM
                                                                        The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/27 05:25 PM
                                                                          The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/28 08:17 AM
                                                                            The File Abstraction: API thoughtsCarlie Coats2009/01/28 09:35 AM
                                                                            The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/28 10:09 AM
                                                                              The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/28 01:44 PM
                                                                                Programs already 'hide' their metadata in the bytestream, unbeknownst to usersanon2009/01/28 09:28 PM
                                                                                The File Abstractionslacker2009/01/29 10:39 AM
                                                                                  The File AbstractionLinus Torvalds2009/01/29 11:08 AM
                                                                                    The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/29 11:49 AM
                                                                                      The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/29 02:58 PM
                                                                                        The File Abstractionrwessel2009/01/29 04:23 PM
                                                                                    Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/29 03:05 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionstubar2009/01/29 04:49 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionLinus Torvalds2009/01/29 05:15 PM
                                                                                        Like Duhanon2009/01/29 07:42 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhanon2009/01/29 09:15 PM
                                                                                            Like Duhanon2009/02/01 07:18 PM
                                                                                              Double Duh.Anonymous2009/02/01 10:58 PM
                                                                                                Double Duh.anon2009/02/02 02:08 AM
                                                                                                  Double Duh.Anonymous2009/02/02 05:11 PM
                                                                                                    Double Duh.anon2009/02/02 07:33 PM
                                                                                              Like DuhDavid Kanter2009/02/01 11:05 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhpeter2009/02/01 11:55 PM
                                                                                                Like Duhanon2009/02/02 01:55 AM
                                                                                                Xattrs, Solar power, regulation and politicsRob Thorpe2009/02/02 04:36 AM
                                                                                                  Terminology seems too fuzzy to mehobold2009/02/02 06:14 AM
                                                                                                    Terminology seems too fuzzy to merwessel2009/02/02 12:33 PM
                                                                                                      good summaryMichael S2009/02/03 02:41 AM
                                                                                                        good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 09:57 AM
                                                                                                          good summaryHoward Chu2009/02/03 10:21 AM
                                                                                                            good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 11:18 AM
                                                                                                              good summaryHoward Chu2009/02/03 12:00 PM
                                                                                                                good summaryMark Christiansen2009/02/03 12:36 PM
                                                                                                          good summaryRagingDragon2009/02/03 10:39 PM
                                                                                                            good summaryrwessel2009/02/03 11:03 PM
                                                                                                              good summaryRagingDragon2009/02/03 11:46 PM
                                                                                                      Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker2009/02/04 05:06 PM
                                                                                                        Terminology seems too fuzzy to meMichael S2009/02/05 01:05 AM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meUngo2009/02/05 01:15 PM
                                                                                                          Terminology seems too fuzzy to meslacker2009/02/05 02:19 PM
                                                                                                            Terminology seems too fuzzy to meHoward Chu2009/02/05 04:44 PM
                                                                                          Like Duhiz2009/01/30 02:03 AM
                                                                                          EAs (security labels) hosed me badlyanon2009/01/30 09:48 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in ActionRagingDragon2009/01/29 09:31 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous2009/01/29 08:13 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/29 09:38 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/30 11:24 AM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/30 05:50 PM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionEtienne Lehnart2009/01/30 12:22 AM
                                                                                      Extended Attributes in ActionRob Thorpe2009/01/30 12:39 PM
                                                                                        Extended Attributes in Actionslacker2009/01/30 01:16 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/30 06:03 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/30 11:22 PM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel2009/01/31 12:08 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in Actionanonymous2009/01/31 12:22 AM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in Actionrwessel2009/01/31 12:56 AM
                                                                                                  ScalingDean Kent2009/01/31 09:04 AM
                                                                                                    ScalingRob Thorpe2009/02/02 02:39 AM
                                                                                                      Scalingrwessel2009/02/02 11:41 AM
                                                                                                        ScalingHoward Chu2009/02/02 12:30 PM
                                                                                                          ScalingDean Kent2009/02/02 02:27 PM
                                                                                                            ScalingRob Thorpe2009/02/03 05:08 AM
                                                                                                              ScalingDean Kent2009/02/03 07:38 AM
                                                                                                              Scalingrwessel2009/02/03 02:34 PM
                                                                                                                ScalingRagingDragon2009/02/03 10:46 PM
                                                                                                    in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 11:27 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleHoward Chu2009/02/03 12:03 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon2009/02/03 11:00 PM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleMichael S2009/02/04 06:46 AM
                                                                                                            in defense of software that does not scaleRagingDragon2009/02/04 09:33 PM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scaleDean Kent2009/02/03 12:17 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleMatt Sayler2009/02/03 12:24 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleVincent Diepeveen2009/02/04 10:43 AM
                                                                                                      in defense of software that does not scalerwessel2009/02/03 02:44 PM
                                                                                                        in defense of software that does not scaleanon2009/02/04 02:35 AM
                                                                                                          in defense of software that does not scaleCarlie Coats2009/02/04 05:24 AM
                                                                                                      Scaling with time vs. scaling from the beginning.mpx2009/02/05 01:57 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionMichael S2009/01/31 10:33 AM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in Actionanon2009/01/31 10:37 PM
                                                                                          Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB2009/01/31 08:11 AM
                                                                                            Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/01/31 11:43 AM
                                                                                              Extended Attributes in ActionJasonB2009/01/31 04:37 PM
                                                                                                Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/02/02 02:42 PM
                                                                                                  Extended Attributes in ActionHoward Chu2009/02/02 02:44 PM
                                                                    The File AbstractionRob Thorpe2009/01/27 11:20 AM
                                                              The File AbstractionHoward Chu2009/01/27 12:28 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionMichael S2009/01/27 03:00 AM
                                                                The File AbstractionDean Kent2009/01/27 08:30 AM
                                                        The File AbstractionAndi Kleen2009/01/27 02:05 AM
                                  SLC vs. MLCMichel2009/01/12 06:54 PM
                                    SLC vs. MLCLinus Torvalds2009/01/12 07:38 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCrwessel2009/01/13 12:52 AM
                                      SLC vs. MLCUngo2009/01/13 03:04 PM
                                        SLC vs. MLCWes Felter2009/01/13 05:42 PM
                                      SLC vs. MLCTruePath2009/01/25 05:05 AM
                    SLC vs. MLCUngo2008/08/21 12:54 PM
                    SLC vs. MLCAaron Spink2008/08/21 01:20 PM
                  MLC vs. SLCMichael S2008/08/21 08:57 AM
                First Dunnington benchmark resultsrwessel2008/08/21 10:40 AM
              First Dunnington benchmark resultsAaron Spink2008/08/21 03:18 AM
      First Dunnington benchmark resultsEtienne Lehnart2008/08/20 04:38 AM
  Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W2008/08/19 10:10 PM
    Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann2008/08/20 12:28 AM
      Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W2008/08/20 03:42 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?David Kanter2008/08/21 01:13 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Joe Chang2008/08/21 06:54 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?asdf2008/08/22 01:18 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/22 07:54 PM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?Jesper Frimann2008/08/22 09:48 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?Tom W2008/08/24 01:06 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S2008/08/24 04:19 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/24 09:30 AM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Paul2008/08/24 11:16 AM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/24 12:37 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S2008/08/25 12:53 AM
        Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/22 10:19 AM
          Will x86 dominate big iron?aaron spink2008/08/23 02:56 AM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?Michael S2008/08/23 09:58 AM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/23 01:51 PM
            Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/23 01:55 PM
              Will x86 dominate big iron?Aaron Spink2008/08/23 04:52 PM
                Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous2008/08/23 05:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/23 06:12 PM
                    Off road and topicEduardoS2008/08/23 06:28 PM
                  Will x86 dominate big iron?someone2008/08/23 06:26 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?Dean Kent2008/08/23 09:40 PM
                    Will x86 dominate big iron?anonymous2008/08/24 01:46 AM
                  Off road and topicDavid W. Hess2008/08/24 03:24 AM
                    Off road and topicAaron Spink2008/08/24 04:14 AM
  Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel2008/08/22 06:30 AM
    Beckton vs. Dunningtonjokerman2008/08/22 12:12 PM
    Beckton vs. DunningtonMr. Camel2009/05/29 10:16 AM
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