Why the platform focus?

Article: Tukwila Update
By: Vincent Diepeveen (diep.delete@this.xs4all.nl), February 5, 2009 9:29 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
savantu (savantu@email.ro) on 2/5/09 wrote:
---------------------------
>Linus Torvalds (torvalds@linux-foundation.org) on 2/5/09 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>David Kanter (dkanter@realworldtech.com) on 2/5/09 wrote:
>>>
>>>This article talks about the catalyst for the delays, which
>>>was primarily a change in the platform, and the history and
>>>decisions that ultimately lead to the delay.
>>
>>The much more interesting issue is if they fixed anything
>>else than the platform?
>>
>>You compare to (very optimistic) POWER6 platform numbers,
>>and try to make it out to be the achilles heel of Itanium,
>>but look at Spec numbers, and realize that the weakest
>>point of Itanium was never the platform - it's the core.
>>
>>SpecInt runs basically close-to-100% out of the cache, and
>>of all the architectures out there, Itanium is way way
>>behind the competition. Improving on the platform will do
>>absolutely nothing to that, since it isn't even
>>relevant.
>>
>>Look at the SpecInt2006 numbers:
>>- Core i7-965: 36
>>- p570 (4.7Ghz): 21.7
>>- Itanium (1.66GHz/18MB): 17.0
>>
>>Now, the Core i7 number is obviously much more recent than
>>the other two, but hey, that's what Tukwila will be facing.
>>(And quite frankly, you can find old Core 2 numbers that
>>are just under 30, so even if you want to go back to the
>>previous generation, you're really not changing the argument
>>at all).
>>
>>And if Tukwila only improves on the platform, not the
>>core (and frequency), then it will be stuck at roughly
>>the same performance. Don't tell me that the platform
>>matters that much for SpecInt when you have a 18MB L3. I
>>just don't believe you.
>>
>>Btw, the numbers aren't that different on the SpecFP side
>>either. Itanium does fractionally better, but not by much.
>>
>>Yes, by comparing to only POWER6 you can make the race
>>look much closer, and can make the argument that POWER
>>has the better interconnect, but that's almost as absurd
>>as comparing Itanium to Sparc (which you also did).
>>
>>What's the real competition again?
>>
>>Oh yeah - it's those Core i7 Xeon chips with eight cores
>>and HT. They're not out yet, but neither is Tukwila.
>>
>>Linus
>
>Let's take another POV : does Tukwilla really need to beat Nehalem and X86 in general ?
>
>I'd say the answer is clearly no.In fact Tukwilla needs to equal Power and handily beat Sparc ( which will happen ).
>Intel can happily push Tukwilla as a direct competitor to other high end server/mainframe
>architectures while using Nehalem as a hammer to squeeze RISC/mainframes from above and below.
>
>It doesn't matter to Intel if somebody picks Nehalem over Tukwilla, still money
>in their pocket.

Excuse me?

When was the last time you ordered hardware?
What price would you want to pay for Tukwila versus Nehalem?

>It is a problem however if money goes to Sparc/Power even if Nehalem
>has 2x the performance per socket and per thread.Sometimes that isn't enough and
>that's where the whole Itanium philosophy comes into play.

Software gets upgraded in lots of companies. All kind of software from the past already has been replaced long time ago. All that software already scales pretty ok. It is NO problem to let single socket or dual socket machines do the job, as long as they got ECC.

Very few softwareproducts can profit major league from 4 socket machines over 2 socket machines, pricewise seen.

Basically we're speaking about AI engines such as my chessprogram where a 4 socket box is real cool to have.

Note for 2009 even that isn't relevant much, as some total idiots decided single handed to have a 8 core (logical cores) limit there.

Yet there is a lot of other tournaments out there. Thing is, that is software that doesn't run crucial services for companies now.

Vincent


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TopicPosted ByDate
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    POWER6 memory bandwidthsomeone2009/02/05 07:00 AM
      POWER6 memory bandwidthMichael S2009/02/05 07:36 AM
      POWER6 interconnectconfused2009/02/05 10:50 AM
        POWER6 interconnectfoobar2009/02/05 02:12 PM
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  Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/05 08:40 AM
    Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/05 08:50 AM
      Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/05 09:29 AM
        Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/05 10:34 PM
          Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/05 11:09 PM
          Why the platform focus?Phil2009/02/06 01:10 AM
            Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/06 01:50 AM
              Why the platform focus?Phil2009/02/06 07:09 AM
                Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/06 10:08 AM
                Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/06 10:21 AM
                  Why the platform focus?mpx2009/02/06 02:04 PM
                    Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/06 02:16 PM
                Why the platform focus?RagingDragon2009/02/07 04:16 PM
                Why the platform focus?mas2009/02/25 08:28 AM
              itanium bigger than entire car industryVincent Diepeveen2009/02/06 07:12 AM
                itanium bigger than entire car industryDevon Welles2009/02/06 07:51 AM
                  itanium bigger than entire car industryVincent Diepeveen2009/02/06 10:41 AM
                  itanium bigger than entire car industryDean Kent2009/02/06 07:56 PM
                    Unit sales is meaningless when ASP grows fastersomeone2009/02/07 09:38 AM
                      Unit sales is meaningless when ASP grows fasterDean Kent2009/02/07 03:10 PM
                        Unit sales is meaningless when ASP grows fasterRagingDragon2009/02/07 04:34 PM
                    itanium bigger than entire car industryVincent Diepeveen2009/02/08 05:35 AM
                itanium bigger than entire car industryRagingDragon2009/02/07 04:40 PM
            Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/06 07:47 AM
      Yes it doesm performance mattersbob2009/02/05 10:51 AM
        Yes it doesm performance mattersVenki2009/02/05 11:06 AM
      Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/06 01:07 AM
        Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/06 02:00 AM
    Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/05 10:49 AM
      Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/05 12:03 PM
        Why the platform focus?Default2009/02/05 01:29 PM
          Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/05 02:08 PM
        Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/05 02:24 PM
          Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/05 03:30 PM
    Why the platform focus?Paradox2009/02/05 11:22 AM
    Why the platform focus?slacker2009/02/05 01:41 PM
      Why the platform focus?RagingDragon2009/02/05 10:57 PM
      Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/06 06:11 AM
        Why the platform focus?slacker2009/02/06 01:58 PM
          Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/08 02:24 AM
            Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/08 09:38 AM
              Why the platform focus?David Kanter2009/02/08 04:27 PM
                Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/08 07:26 PM
                  Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/09 12:35 AM
          Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/08 09:53 AM
    All x86 SpecInt scores are useless due to autopar (NT)Michael S2009/02/05 03:15 PM
      Auto parallelizationDavid Kanter2009/02/05 06:17 PM
      All x86 SpecInt scores are useless due to autopar (NT)Paradox2009/02/06 08:47 AM
    Why the platform focus?David Kanter2009/02/05 04:49 PM
    Why the platform focus?David Kanter2009/02/06 01:09 AM
      Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/06 08:14 AM
        Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/06 10:37 AM
          Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/06 12:49 PM
            Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/06 01:09 PM
            Intel puts its money where its mouth issomeone2009/02/06 02:08 PM
              Intel puts its money where its mouth isRagingDragon2009/02/07 06:01 PM
                Intel puts its money where its mouth issomeone2009/02/08 02:24 PM
                  mission-criticalMichael S2009/02/08 05:06 PM
                    mission-criticalmpx2009/02/09 02:30 AM
                      mission-criticalrwessel2009/02/09 03:23 PM
                    mission-criticalanon2009/02/09 03:55 AM
                    mission-criticalEduardoS2009/02/09 05:17 PM
                      mission-criticalDean Kent2009/02/09 08:11 PM
                        mission-criticalMichael S2009/02/10 05:20 AM
                          mission-criticalDean Kent2009/02/10 07:26 AM
                            mission-criticalMichael S2009/02/10 08:01 AM
                              mission-criticalDean Kent2009/02/10 01:36 PM
                            mission-criticalsomeone2009/02/10 09:05 AM
                              mission-criticalDean Kent2009/02/10 01:22 PM
                                mission-criticalZt2009/02/22 04:54 PM
                          mission-criticalanon2009/02/10 10:41 PM
                        mission-criticalEduardoS2009/02/10 01:46 PM
                          mission-criticalDean Kent2009/02/10 02:31 PM
                        mission-criticalslacker2009/02/10 07:30 PM
                    mission-criticalVincent Diepeveen2009/02/18 07:20 AM
                  Mission criticalmpx2009/02/09 01:00 AM
            Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/07 01:15 AM
              Sun and x86 server differentiationDavid Kanter2009/02/07 01:34 AM
                Sun and x86 server differentiationmax2009/02/07 03:30 AM
                Sun and x86 server differentiationsomeone2009/02/07 10:19 AM
                  Sun and x86 server differentiationLinus Torvalds2009/02/07 10:44 AM
                Sun and x86 server differentiationRagingDragon2009/02/07 06:09 PM
                  Sun and x86 server differentiationMichael S2009/02/08 05:05 AM
                    Sun and x86 server differentiationRagingDragon2009/02/10 12:03 AM
                    Sun and x86 server differentiationJesper Frimann2009/02/10 12:51 AM
                      Sun and x86 server differentiationAlex Jones2009/02/10 01:43 PM
            Why the platform focus?bob2009/02/08 04:51 AM
              Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/08 09:23 AM
          missing the big pictureAM2009/02/18 06:43 AM
            missing the big pictureMichael S2009/02/18 08:42 AM
              missing the big pictureAM2009/02/18 09:03 AM
        Why the platform focus?mpx2009/02/06 12:47 PM
          Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.mpx2009/02/06 04:48 PM
            Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.Paul2009/02/07 02:56 PM
              z series?Michael S2009/02/07 03:12 PM
              Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.someone else2009/02/24 04:37 AM
                Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.EduardoS2009/02/24 06:55 AM
                  Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.someone else2009/02/25 01:55 AM
                    Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.Michael S2009/02/25 02:27 AM
          Why the platform focus?RagingDragon2009/02/07 06:18 PM
            Why the platform focus?Paul2009/02/08 01:10 PM
              Why the platform focus?Jukka Larja2009/02/08 11:04 PM
        Why the platform focus?slacker2009/02/06 02:10 PM
          Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/06 02:40 PM
            Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/06 02:51 PM
            Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/06 02:58 PM
              Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/07 09:26 AM
                Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/07 10:10 AM
                  Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/07 10:40 AM
                    Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/07 12:24 PM
                      Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/08 12:32 AM
                        Why the platform focus?max2009/02/08 04:57 AM
                          Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/08 05:20 AM
                        Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/08 09:15 AM
                          Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/08 11:36 PM
                      Why the platform focus?hobold2009/02/09 05:49 AM
                Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/24 01:57 AM
                  Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/24 09:45 AM
                    Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/24 12:30 PM
                      Why the platform focus?slacker2009/02/24 01:51 PM
                        Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/25 12:04 AM
                          Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/25 02:34 AM
                          Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/25 10:17 AM
                      Why the platform focus?max2009/02/25 11:15 AM
                    Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/24 05:43 PM
                      Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/24 08:26 PM
                        Why the platform focus?Howard Chu2009/02/25 03:07 AM
                          Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 06:48 AM
                        Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 06:41 AM
                          Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/25 09:17 AM
                            Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 09:55 AM
                              has anyone seen Tukwila silicon?anon2009/02/25 10:38 AM
                              Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/25 11:05 AM
                                Why the platform focus?slacker2009/02/25 01:11 PM
                                Why the platform focus?a reader2009/02/26 09:11 PM
                                  Why the platform focus?rcf2009/02/27 01:32 PM
                                    Why the platform focus?max2009/02/27 02:11 PM
                                      Why the platform focus?rcf2009/02/27 03:50 PM
                            Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/25 04:30 PM
                            $40M sale to $16M companybob2009/02/25 08:25 PM
                              $40M sale to $16M companyRichard Cownie2009/02/26 12:21 PM
                  Why the platform focus?anonymous2009/02/24 11:52 AM
                    Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/24 12:20 PM
                      Why the platform focus?anonymous2009/02/24 03:31 PM
                        Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/25 12:05 AM
                        Why the platform focus?someone else2009/02/25 01:04 AM
                          Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/25 01:42 AM
                            Put me down for $500 that Poulson doesn't arrive earlier than Q4/2011 (NT)slacker2009/02/25 12:39 PM
                        Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 06:54 AM
                          Why the platform focus?anonymous2009/02/25 09:46 AM
                            Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 10:22 AM
                            Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/25 11:01 AM
                              Why the platform focus?anonymous2009/02/25 11:54 AM
                  Why the platform focus?mpx2009/02/24 02:11 PM
                    Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/24 08:57 PM
                      Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/24 10:04 PM
                        Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/24 10:46 PM
                          Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/25 05:13 PM
                            Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/25 08:53 PM
                              Why the platform focus?bob2009/02/25 09:00 PM
                                Please try to keep up (NT)anon2009/02/25 09:49 PM
                              Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/26 12:09 AM
                                Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/26 01:12 AM
                                Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/26 02:16 AM
                                  Why the platform focus?James2009/02/26 06:09 AM
                                    sufficiently intimate with the OSMichael S2009/02/26 06:29 AM
                                      sufficiently intimate with the OSanon2009/02/27 01:01 AM
                                      sufficiently intimate with the OSHoward Chu2009/02/27 01:37 AM
                      Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/25 02:02 AM
                        Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/25 03:07 AM
              Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/07 01:18 PM
                Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/08 10:16 AM
                Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/25 07:40 AM
                  Intels financial statusVincent Diepeveen2009/02/25 12:02 PM
                Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 07:54 AM
      Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/06 08:20 AM
        Why the platform focus?Default2009/02/06 09:57 AM
          Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/06 10:59 AM
          Why the platform focus?RagingDragon2009/02/07 06:43 PM
  Tukwila Update - article onlineVincent Diepeveen2009/02/05 09:11 AM
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