Why the platform focus?

Article: Tukwila Update
By: someone (someone.delete@this.somewhere.com), February 7, 2009 11:24 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Linus Torvalds (torvalds@linux-foundation.org) on 2/7/09 wrote:
---------------------------

>But look at it this way: if you're trying to convince
>somebody to stray from the POWER fold, what the hell has
>IPF to offer? Absolutely nothing. This whole argument that
>IPF is competing against POWER seems broken to me. If it
>is, it is losing.
>
>POWER has better performance, a better infrastructure, and
>a vendor who doesn't screw its customers over like clock-
>work every decade.

Ahahahaha, that's really funny. Talk to some AS/400 users
about how non-screwing IBM is. Or mainframe customers
who had hoped for restoration of multivendor competition
with the likes of PSI.

In the early days Power had many advantages over IPF but
with each new generation of IPF more of these advantages
disappear. Montecito added multi-threading and dual core.
Tukwila adds huge amounts of bandwidth from integrated
memory controllers and system routing fabric. Poulson
will catapult IPF from usually trailing Power in process
technology to leading it. Where can IBM take Power to stay
ahead of IPF? To 300W+ chips packaged five at a time in
1600W MCMs run inside refridgeration loops with wind
tunnel backup cooling like z10?

Looking ahead it appears that IBM is strongly redirecting
Power towards the HPC market and preparing mainframes
for center stage role of running mission critical commercial
workloads. If that is true then IMO IBM is acknowledging
the war between IPF and RISC for general purpose high
end servers is almost over and IPF will win. IBM just can't
compete with Intel processes, fabs, or merchant processor
business model *head on* which is why it has spent the
last decade transforming itself more and more into a
software and services giant that dabbles in chip making
and low volume, high margin proprietary ISA servers on
the side. (IBM's x86 server business is in such disarray
one must wonder if its days are numbered).

Big system users don't switch architectures on whim, they
really do "marry" them for 10 or 20 years or more. Someone
choosing a platform today will ask themselves "will Intel
still be in the chip making business 10 and 20 years from
now? What about IBM?"

IMO buyers see IPF and z mainframes as pretty safe long
term bets (mainframes processors are distinguished by
their ISA and software base, not computational muscle;
being fabbed by IBM Micro vs TSMC doesn't change the
value proposition of the platform much), Power is less
certain, and SPARC has red flags all over the place.

And x86? Well x86 servers will continue to leverage the
processor cores, process techology, and OSes bought
and paid for by PC MPU sales and own the vast majority
of the entry level server market. The same Intel process
technology leveraged by IPF thank you very much.
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TopicPosted ByDate
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    Tukwila Update - article onlineJoe Chang2009/02/05 08:16 AM
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            Great. Finally hard numbersMichael S2009/02/06 03:46 AM
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              Tukwila Update - article onlinePhil2009/02/06 06:29 AM
                Tukwila Update - article onlineRagingDragon2009/02/07 02:39 PM
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              Tukwila Update - article onlinePhil2009/02/06 06:47 AM
                Tukwila Update - article onlinesomeone2009/02/06 07:17 AM
                Tukwila Update - article onlineRagingDragon2009/02/07 02:51 PM
              Tukwila Update - article onlineLinus Torvalds2009/02/06 07:37 AM
                Tukwila Update - article onlinesomeone2009/02/06 08:19 AM
                Tukwila Update - article onlinesavantu2009/02/06 09:19 AM
                  Tukwila Update - article onlineLinus Torvalds2009/02/06 09:40 AM
                    Tukwila Update - article onlinesavantu2009/02/06 10:00 AM
              Tukwila Update - article onlinePhil2009/02/09 03:54 AM
                Tukwila Update - article onlineDoug Siebert2009/02/09 09:40 PM
                  Tukwila Update - article onlineJouni Osmala2009/02/10 12:03 AM
                  Tukwila Update - article onlinesomeone2009/02/10 05:15 AM
                Tukwila Update - article onlineslacker2009/02/10 05:22 PM
    Tukwila Update - article onlineMichael S2009/02/05 02:56 PM
    Tukwila Update - article onlineDavid Kanter2009/02/05 03:55 PM
    Tukwila Update - article onlinesomeone2009/02/05 04:47 PM
      Tukwila Update - article onlineanon2009/02/05 09:16 PM
        Tukwila Update - article onlineRagingDragon2009/02/05 09:27 PM
        Tukwila Update - article onlinesomeone2009/02/06 06:32 AM
          Tukwila Update - article onlineanon2009/02/06 08:25 AM
            Tukwila Update - article onlinesomeone2009/02/06 08:40 AM
  POWER6 memory bandwidthMichael S2009/02/05 02:30 AM
    POWER6 memory bandwidthsomeone2009/02/05 06:00 AM
      POWER6 memory bandwidthMichael S2009/02/05 06:36 AM
      POWER6 interconnectconfused2009/02/05 09:50 AM
        POWER6 interconnectfoobar2009/02/05 01:12 PM
    POWER6 memory bandwidthWes Felter2009/02/05 11:57 AM
    POWER6 memory bandwidthJesper Frimann2009/02/09 10:54 PM
      POWER6 memory bandwidthMichael S2009/02/10 06:21 AM
  Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/05 07:40 AM
    Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/05 07:50 AM
      Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/05 08:29 AM
        Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/05 09:34 PM
          Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/05 10:09 PM
          Why the platform focus?Phil2009/02/06 12:10 AM
            Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/06 12:50 AM
              Why the platform focus?Phil2009/02/06 06:09 AM
                Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/06 09:08 AM
                Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/06 09:21 AM
                  Why the platform focus?mpx2009/02/06 01:04 PM
                    Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/06 01:16 PM
                Why the platform focus?RagingDragon2009/02/07 03:16 PM
                Why the platform focus?mas2009/02/25 07:28 AM
              itanium bigger than entire car industryVincent Diepeveen2009/02/06 06:12 AM
                itanium bigger than entire car industryDevon Welles2009/02/06 06:51 AM
                  itanium bigger than entire car industryVincent Diepeveen2009/02/06 09:41 AM
                  itanium bigger than entire car industryDean Kent2009/02/06 06:56 PM
                    Unit sales is meaningless when ASP grows fastersomeone2009/02/07 08:38 AM
                      Unit sales is meaningless when ASP grows fasterDean Kent2009/02/07 02:10 PM
                        Unit sales is meaningless when ASP grows fasterRagingDragon2009/02/07 03:34 PM
                    itanium bigger than entire car industryVincent Diepeveen2009/02/08 04:35 AM
                itanium bigger than entire car industryRagingDragon2009/02/07 03:40 PM
            Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/06 06:47 AM
      Yes it doesm performance mattersbob2009/02/05 09:51 AM
        Yes it doesm performance mattersVenki2009/02/05 10:06 AM
      Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/06 12:07 AM
        Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/06 01:00 AM
    Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/05 09:49 AM
      Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/05 11:03 AM
        Why the platform focus?Default2009/02/05 12:29 PM
          Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/05 01:08 PM
        Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/05 01:24 PM
          Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/05 02:30 PM
    Why the platform focus?Paradox2009/02/05 10:22 AM
    Why the platform focus?slacker2009/02/05 12:41 PM
      Why the platform focus?RagingDragon2009/02/05 09:57 PM
      Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/06 05:11 AM
        Why the platform focus?slacker2009/02/06 12:58 PM
          Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/08 01:24 AM
            Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/08 08:38 AM
              Why the platform focus?David Kanter2009/02/08 03:27 PM
                Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/08 06:26 PM
                  Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/08 11:35 PM
          Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/08 08:53 AM
    All x86 SpecInt scores are useless due to autopar (NT)Michael S2009/02/05 02:15 PM
      Auto parallelizationDavid Kanter2009/02/05 05:17 PM
      All x86 SpecInt scores are useless due to autopar (NT)Paradox2009/02/06 07:47 AM
    Why the platform focus?David Kanter2009/02/05 03:49 PM
    Why the platform focus?David Kanter2009/02/06 12:09 AM
      Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/06 07:14 AM
        Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/06 09:37 AM
          Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/06 11:49 AM
            Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/06 12:09 PM
            Intel puts its money where its mouth issomeone2009/02/06 01:08 PM
              Intel puts its money where its mouth isRagingDragon2009/02/07 05:01 PM
                Intel puts its money where its mouth issomeone2009/02/08 01:24 PM
                  mission-criticalMichael S2009/02/08 04:06 PM
                    mission-criticalmpx2009/02/09 01:30 AM
                      mission-criticalrwessel2009/02/09 02:23 PM
                    mission-criticalanon2009/02/09 02:55 AM
                    mission-criticalEduardoS2009/02/09 04:17 PM
                      mission-criticalDean Kent2009/02/09 07:11 PM
                        mission-criticalMichael S2009/02/10 04:20 AM
                          mission-criticalDean Kent2009/02/10 06:26 AM
                            mission-criticalMichael S2009/02/10 07:01 AM
                              mission-criticalDean Kent2009/02/10 12:36 PM
                            mission-criticalsomeone2009/02/10 08:05 AM
                              mission-criticalDean Kent2009/02/10 12:22 PM
                                mission-criticalZt2009/02/22 03:54 PM
                          mission-criticalanon2009/02/10 09:41 PM
                        mission-criticalEduardoS2009/02/10 12:46 PM
                          mission-criticalDean Kent2009/02/10 01:31 PM
                        mission-criticalslacker2009/02/10 06:30 PM
                    mission-criticalVincent Diepeveen2009/02/18 06:20 AM
                  Mission criticalmpx2009/02/09 12:00 AM
            Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/07 12:15 AM
              Sun and x86 server differentiationDavid Kanter2009/02/07 12:34 AM
                Sun and x86 server differentiationmax2009/02/07 02:30 AM
                Sun and x86 server differentiationsomeone2009/02/07 09:19 AM
                  Sun and x86 server differentiationLinus Torvalds2009/02/07 09:44 AM
                Sun and x86 server differentiationRagingDragon2009/02/07 05:09 PM
                  Sun and x86 server differentiationMichael S2009/02/08 04:05 AM
                    Sun and x86 server differentiationRagingDragon2009/02/09 11:03 PM
                    Sun and x86 server differentiationJesper Frimann2009/02/09 11:51 PM
                      Sun and x86 server differentiationAlex Jones2009/02/10 12:43 PM
            Why the platform focus?bob2009/02/08 03:51 AM
              Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/08 08:23 AM
          missing the big pictureAM2009/02/18 05:43 AM
            missing the big pictureMichael S2009/02/18 07:42 AM
              missing the big pictureAM2009/02/18 08:03 AM
        Why the platform focus?mpx2009/02/06 11:47 AM
          Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.mpx2009/02/06 03:48 PM
            Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.Paul2009/02/07 01:56 PM
              z series?Michael S2009/02/07 02:12 PM
              Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.someone else2009/02/24 03:37 AM
                Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.EduardoS2009/02/24 05:55 AM
                  Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.someone else2009/02/25 12:55 AM
                    Itanium - slowest and most obsolete server CPU family in the world, NOW.Michael S2009/02/25 01:27 AM
          Why the platform focus?RagingDragon2009/02/07 05:18 PM
            Why the platform focus?Paul2009/02/08 12:10 PM
              Why the platform focus?Jukka Larja2009/02/08 10:04 PM
        Why the platform focus?slacker2009/02/06 01:10 PM
          Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/06 01:40 PM
            Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/06 01:51 PM
            Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/06 01:58 PM
              Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/07 08:26 AM
                Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/07 09:10 AM
                  Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/07 09:40 AM
                    Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/07 11:24 AM
                      Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/07 11:32 PM
                        Why the platform focus?max2009/02/08 03:57 AM
                          Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/08 04:20 AM
                        Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/08 08:15 AM
                          Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/08 10:36 PM
                      Why the platform focus?hobold2009/02/09 04:49 AM
                Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/24 12:57 AM
                  Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/24 08:45 AM
                    Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/24 11:30 AM
                      Why the platform focus?slacker2009/02/24 12:51 PM
                        Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/24 11:04 PM
                          Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/25 01:34 AM
                          Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/25 09:17 AM
                      Why the platform focus?max2009/02/25 10:15 AM
                    Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/24 04:43 PM
                      Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/24 07:26 PM
                        Why the platform focus?Howard Chu2009/02/25 02:07 AM
                          Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 05:48 AM
                        Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 05:41 AM
                          Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/25 08:17 AM
                            Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 08:55 AM
                              has anyone seen Tukwila silicon?anon2009/02/25 09:38 AM
                              Why the platform focus?Linus Torvalds2009/02/25 10:05 AM
                                Why the platform focus?slacker2009/02/25 12:11 PM
                                Why the platform focus?a reader2009/02/26 08:11 PM
                                  Why the platform focus?rcf2009/02/27 12:32 PM
                                    Why the platform focus?max2009/02/27 01:11 PM
                                      Why the platform focus?rcf2009/02/27 02:50 PM
                            Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/25 03:30 PM
                            $40M sale to $16M companybob2009/02/25 07:25 PM
                              $40M sale to $16M companyRichard Cownie2009/02/26 11:21 AM
                  Why the platform focus?anonymous2009/02/24 10:52 AM
                    Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/24 11:20 AM
                      Why the platform focus?anonymous2009/02/24 02:31 PM
                        Why the platform focus?savantu2009/02/24 11:05 PM
                        Why the platform focus?someone else2009/02/25 12:04 AM
                          Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/25 12:42 AM
                            Put me down for $500 that Poulson doesn't arrive earlier than Q4/2011 (NT)slacker2009/02/25 11:39 AM
                        Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 05:54 AM
                          Why the platform focus?anonymous2009/02/25 08:46 AM
                            Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 09:22 AM
                            Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/25 10:01 AM
                              Why the platform focus?anonymous2009/02/25 10:54 AM
                  Why the platform focus?mpx2009/02/24 01:11 PM
                    Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/24 07:57 PM
                      Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/24 09:04 PM
                        Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/24 09:46 PM
                          Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/25 04:13 PM
                            Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/25 07:53 PM
                              Why the platform focus?bob2009/02/25 08:00 PM
                                Please try to keep up (NT)anon2009/02/25 08:49 PM
                              Why the platform focus?Doug Siebert2009/02/25 11:09 PM
                                Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/26 12:12 AM
                                Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/26 01:16 AM
                                  Why the platform focus?James2009/02/26 05:09 AM
                                    sufficiently intimate with the OSMichael S2009/02/26 05:29 AM
                                      sufficiently intimate with the OSanon2009/02/27 12:01 AM
                                      sufficiently intimate with the OSHoward Chu2009/02/27 12:37 AM
                      Why the platform focus?Michael S2009/02/25 01:02 AM
                        Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/25 02:07 AM
              Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/07 12:18 PM
                Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/08 09:16 AM
                Why the platform focus?anon2009/02/25 06:40 AM
                  Intels financial statusVincent Diepeveen2009/02/25 11:02 AM
                Why the platform focus?someone2009/02/25 06:54 AM
      Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/06 07:20 AM
        Why the platform focus?Default2009/02/06 08:57 AM
          Why the platform focus?Vincent Diepeveen2009/02/06 09:59 AM
          Why the platform focus?RagingDragon2009/02/07 05:43 PM
  Tukwila Update - article onlineVincent Diepeveen2009/02/05 08:11 AM
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