wacky C++ features

Article: Hot Chips XXI Preview
By: JasonB (no.delete@this.spam.com), August 26, 2009 6:46 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Richard Cownie (tich@pobox.com) on 8/26/09 wrote:
---------------------------
>JasonB (no@spam.com) on 8/25/09 wrote:
>---------------------------
>
>>of compilers, yes. What is your point?
>
>My point is that "standard" and "conformant" are rather
>unhelpful concepts. There's stuff that's officially
>"standard" that shouldn't be used because hardly anyone
>implements it. There's stuff that's arguably "conformant"
>but completely useless.

Be careful about throwing out the baby with the bathwater just because there is one feature not implemented by the majority of compilers because it is pretty useless and hard to implement.

It's not a justification for relying on stuff that is specified to be unreliable, and in fact not only varies between implementations, and with different compiler switches in the same implementation, but even varies depending on what features your code is using (e.g. threading in your case).

>So it comes down to culture: you work in one kind of
>culture - small group of competent developers, Windows,
>MSVC++, adherence to coding standards. I work in a very
>different culture - largish group of developers of (to
>be polite) varying competence, Linux, g++, no ability
>to enforce coding standards. Applying the judgments of
>one culture to practices in another culture is not a
>very productive exercise, any more than criticizing a
>Kalahari Bushman for not wearing a jacket and tie.

The thing is that all of that is an even bigger argument for writing your own malloc() or at least checking the code to see if the behaviour you were seeing was real. My point from the beginning was the inconsistency in your position where you were unwilling to use a well-defined subset of the language because it might be implemented poorly (STL), but were willing to base an entire pointer compression algorithm on the apparent behaviour of one function without even looking at its implementation when the standard specifically states that that particular behaviour is not specified.

>>Should I have said "there is no practical substitute"?
>
>It's ugly, but it's practical: we do it, where we have to,
>it works, and we can sell the app.

Ouch. And you had to do all of that because GCC doesn't implement dynamic_cast properly?

I'm sure GCC is a mess, but I wonder if it would have been easier to try and fix the bug in GCC instead? :-)

>>I just searched through our code and we never use dynamic_cast for any of
>>our own code -- properly designed application-level OO code has very few uses for
>
>Oh, I agree. If you're using it, it's probably poor
>design. But that was my original point: are there
>features in the language standard that you never, or
>hardly ever, use ? We can put dynamic_cast on that list.

It's one of those things that you hardly ever use in well-designed code of a certain type, but is absolutely vital in another context.

Look at reinterpret_cast: that has no real place in most application-level code, but you couldn't write system-level code without it. At least dynamic_cast has some justification at the application level: safely downcasting a pointer to a parent class down to the appropriate child. Usually there are better designs that eliminate the need, but C++ is a pragmatic language.

>>With exceptions you can freely choose at any level to handle any subset of any
>>possible exceptions without ever having to worry about anything falling through
>>the cracks, and without having intimate knowledge of the implementation of the code
>
>The problem is not with the places where you handle
>or don't handle exceptions. The problem is with code A
>that worked just fine without exceptions, but becomes
>broken because code B starts throwing an exception and
>code C catches it and tries to recover.
>
>Like this:
>
>void A(char* fname)
>{
>int fd = open(fname, O_RDONLY, 0);
>if (fd < 0) ... error check
>ParseTree* foo = ParseFile(fd);
>close(fd);
>}
>
>Is that code ok ? Yes if ParseFile() can't throw an
>exception; no if ParseFile() can throw an exception -
>in that case we'll leak the file descriptor fd.

Fortunately it only takes one line to fix:

void A(char* fname)
{
int fd = open(fname, O_RDONLY, 0);
if (fd < 0) ... error check
ON_BLOCK_EXIT(close, fd);

ParseTree* foo = ParseFile(fd);
}

(I assume you actually do something with foo rather than just leak it.)

This routine is now exception safe. (ParseFile may not be, but that's ParseFile's problem.)

That's the beauty of scopeguard.

You can even save a line if you use ifstream instead because it uses RAII internally.

>And I can't tell by looking at this code alone.

The whole point of RAII is that for each routine, if you make that routine exception-safe in isolation, you don't have to care about implementing try-catch(-finally) at all except in the routines that actually try to handle the exception.

>And
>if ParseFile changes, nothing in the compiler is even
>going to warn me that the non-local effects of the
>change make it necessary to review and possibly change
>this code.
>
>Yeuch!

That's why making each routine exception safe is so important, which is why making writing exception safe code easy is so important, which is why RAII is so important, which is why C++ makes writing robust code easier than e.g. Java.

BTW, one of the reasons why the compiler doesn't warn you that a routine you are calling has exceptions that you aren't handling is because C++ has to interface with legacy code and there is no way for it to know that.

In hindsight, after seeing the mess that checked exceptions results in with Java, it turns out that even if it had been possible to make exception specifications a mandatory requirement it would have been a bad idea. 15 years ago it seemed like a reasonable thing and that C++ was missing out because of compatibility requirements, but now it seems like it dodged a bullet.

I consider checked exceptions the "export" equivalent for Java -- something that sounds good on paper but really needed a few years experience in writing large programs before committing to.

>>The second is functionality: throwing an exception guarantees the destruction of
>>all objects on the stack from the thrower to the catcher, allowing RAII to be used
>>to guarantee no resources leak and the program to be exception safe (to the point
>
>Except it doesn't.

Yes, it does.

>It guarantees that all *objects* get
>destroyed. But there are resources that aren't necessarily
>objects with destructors. So this becomes a bit half-assed.

Read what I wrote. If you aren't using objects to manage resources then you aren't using RAII.

You can always create an object to manage a resource. You can even model resources that it doesn't make sense to copy (e.g. a keyboard). If you don't already have a resource management object and you can't be bothered writing one, then use scopeguard. It allows you to create a lightweight object in one line of code that tells how to release the resource. (ON_BLOCK_EXIT is simply a macro to create an anonymous object.)

If you're using so many C-style interfaces in your code then scopeguard can really help, not only with exception safety but even just simplifying code by allowing you to keep resource management code adjacent to each other spatially (even if their execution is temporally separated).

In case you're not using it already, here's a slightly modified one from the original: http://www.zete.org/people/jlehrer/scopeguard.h. It has features that aren't in the one in Boost.

>Sure, if all your code everywhere carefully follows the
>necessary rules, then exceptions can work out pretty
>well. But a) verifying global compliance to rules that
>can't be automatically checked is a hard problem,

This is why it's so important to use a very simple idiom that you can see immediately has been followed. Adding one line of code immediately below the existing code is much easier to enforce than making sure the same call is made at the other end of the routine plus on every relevant return path.

>and b) enforcing *new* global rules in an old codebase
>is just about impossible.

The approach we took was to update the code as we went, starting at the top level routines. Then, over time, if an exception could be profitably handled lower down that would mean the entire operation needn't be aborted, add a handler for that. Using the standard C++ classes (plus MFC's) rather than C functions automatically gives you a lot of RAII by default because I can't think of one that doesn't use RAII.

>>I really don't care what mediocre developers will do. Mediocre developers will
>>always find ways to do things wrong.
>
>Like I said, different culture. In my environment, the
>best choices are to make sure that anything subtle is
>carefully encapsulated (preferably in a single file);
>and to apply defensive programming at the interfaces
>(assertion checking etc) so that when someone does
>something stupid, you can detect it and tell them about
>it quickly.

The whole point about using scopeguard (or classes with RAII) is that it simplifies code while, at the same time, making it robust. The weaker the developers, the more value there is in using this approach.
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                                                              limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/18 07:22 AM
                                                                limits of sorting_Arthur2009/08/18 07:57 AM
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                                                                    limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/18 08:45 AM
                                                                    limits of sortingMichael S2009/08/18 08:50 AM
                                                                      limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/18 09:09 AM
                                                                        limits of sortingMichael S2009/08/18 09:33 AM
                                                                          limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/18 09:53 AM
                                                                            limits of sortingMichael S2009/08/18 10:28 AM
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                                                                                                  You work on EDA right Richard?slacker2009/08/19 10:45 PM
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                                                                                          You work on EDA right Richard?Aaron Spink2009/08/19 11:08 PM
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                                                                                              You work on EDA right Richard?Rob Thorpe2009/08/20 03:10 PM
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                                                                                    limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/18 10:11 PM
                                                                                      limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/18 10:25 PM
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                                                                                        limits of sortingRob Thorpe2009/08/19 06:12 AM
                                                                                          limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/19 06:46 AM
                                                                                        limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/19 07:43 PM
                                                                                          limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/20 06:47 AM
                                                                                            limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/20 07:20 PM
                                                                                              limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/20 10:12 PM
                                                                                                limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/21 01:08 AM
                                                                                                  limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/21 04:15 AM
                                                                                                    limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/22 05:24 PM
                                                                                                      limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/22 06:27 PM
                                                                                                        limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/22 07:39 PM
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                                                                                                          limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/23 04:53 AM
                                                                                                            limits of sortinganonymous2009/08/23 10:42 AM
                                                                                                              useful link, thanksRichard Cownie2009/08/23 04:23 PM
                                                                                                            limits of sorting?2009/09/04 03:05 AM
                                                                                                        limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/23 08:26 AM
                                                                                                          wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/24 06:13 AM
                                                                                                            wacky C++ featuresa reader2009/08/24 08:59 PM
                                                                                                              wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/25 02:18 AM
                                                                                                                wacky C++ featuresa reader2009/08/25 06:04 AM
                                                                                                                  wacky C++ featuresPotatoswatter2009/08/25 09:21 PM
                                                                                                                    wacky C++ featuresnone2009/08/26 04:47 AM
                                                                                                                    wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/26 07:09 AM
                                                                                                                      wacky C++ featuresPotatoswatter2009/08/27 05:25 AM
                                                                                                            wacky C++ featuresAndi Kleen2009/08/24 11:06 PM
                                                                                                              wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/25 02:10 AM
                                                                                                              wacky C++ featuresOctoploid2009/08/25 02:40 AM
                                                                                                                wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/25 04:15 AM
                                                                                                                  wacky C++ featuresAndi Kleen2009/08/25 06:58 AM
                                                                                                                    thanksRichard Cownie2009/08/25 07:07 AM
                                                                                                                      thanksAndi Kleen2009/08/25 10:28 AM
                                                                                                              wacky C++ featuresanon2009/08/25 02:34 PM
                                                                                                                wacky C++ featuresAndi Kleen2009/08/25 09:25 PM
                                                                                                            wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/25 12:13 AM
                                                                                                              wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/25 01:32 AM
                                                                                                                exceptiona reader2009/08/25 06:32 AM
                                                                                                                  exceptionRichard Cownie2009/08/25 06:57 AM
                                                                                                                    exceptionPotatoswatter2009/08/25 07:30 AM
                                                                                                                wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/25 07:56 PM
                                                                                                                  correctionJasonB2009/08/25 08:47 PM
                                                                                                                    correctionc++2009/08/26 08:53 AM
                                                                                                                      correctionJasonB2009/08/26 06:48 PM
                                                                                                                      (new char[10]) does not have array type (NT)Potatoswatter2009/08/27 05:27 AM
                                                                                                                      correctionPotatoswatter2009/08/27 06:52 AM
                                                                                                                        correctionc++2009/08/27 08:29 AM
                                                                                                                          comeau bugs and gcc featuresPotatoswatter2009/08/27 08:51 AM
                                                                                                                            comeau bugs and gcc featuresPotatoswatter2009/08/27 10:28 AM
                                                                                                                  wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/26 08:17 AM
                                                                                                                    wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/26 06:46 PM
                                                                                                                      wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/27 08:41 AM
                                                                                                                        wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/27 08:33 PM
                                                                                                                          wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/28 12:24 AM
                                                                                                                            wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/28 12:27 AM
                                                                                                                              wacky C++ featuresMichael S2009/08/28 05:05 AM
                                                                                                                                wacky C++ featuresEduardoS2009/08/28 05:45 AM
                                                                                                                                wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/28 06:50 AM
                                                                                                                                  wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/28 03:56 PM
                                                                                                                            wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/28 04:55 PM
                                                                                                                              wacky C++ featuresRichard Cownie2009/08/28 06:44 PM
                                                                                                                            wacky C++ featuresKonrad Schwarz2009/09/07 03:24 AM
                                                                                                                  wacky C++ featuresEduardoS2009/08/26 02:22 PM
                                                                                                                    wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/26 05:47 PM
                                                                                                                      wacky C++ featuresJukka Larja2009/08/26 11:03 PM
                                                                                                                        wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/27 12:17 AM
                                                                                                                      wacky C++ featuresEduardoS2009/08/27 02:26 PM
                                                                                                                        wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/27 05:31 PM
                                                                                                                          wacky C++ featuresEduardoS2009/08/28 02:25 PM
                                                                                                                            wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/28 05:20 PM
                                                                                                                        wacky C++ featuresJasonB2009/08/27 08:56 PM
                                                                                                  Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/21 06:33 AM
                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureMichael S2009/08/21 07:07 AM
                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/21 07:33 AM
                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux culturePaul2009/08/22 03:12 AM
                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureanon2009/08/21 10:18 PM
                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/21 10:45 PM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureanon2009/08/21 11:48 PM
                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux culturePaul2009/08/22 03:25 AM
                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureGian-Carlo Pascutto2009/08/22 06:02 AM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux culturePaul2009/08/22 07:13 AM
                                                                                                          Windows vs Unix/Linux culturerwessel2009/08/24 02:09 PM
                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/22 04:28 PM
                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/22 05:22 PM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/22 05:52 PM
                                                                                                          Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/22 06:47 PM
                                                                                                        EncapsulationKonrad Schwarz2009/09/03 03:49 AM
                                                                                                          Encapsulationanon2009/09/03 09:05 AM
                                                                                                          Encapsulation?2009/09/03 10:38 AM
                                                                                                          EncapsulationAndi Kleen2009/09/04 12:41 AM
                                                                                                            Encapsulationanon2009/09/04 06:24 AM
                                                                                                            EncapsulationRichard Cownie2009/09/04 06:34 AM
                                                                                                              EncapsulationKonrad Schwarz2009/09/07 02:28 AM
                                                                                                                EncapsulationRichard Cownie2009/09/07 03:04 PM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux culture?2009/09/03 10:51 AM
                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureno thanks2009/08/23 09:36 AM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/23 03:23 PM
                                                                                                          Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/23 07:31 PM
                                                                                                            Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/23 11:10 PM
                                                                                                              Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJukka Larja2009/08/24 09:13 PM
                                                                                                              Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/24 10:35 PM
                                                                                                                Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/25 02:04 AM
                                                                                                                  Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/25 10:48 PM
                                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/26 07:28 AM
                                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/26 09:31 PM
                                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/26 07:43 AM
                                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureanon2009/08/26 12:48 PM
                                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/26 02:28 PM
                                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/26 07:06 PM
                                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/27 02:44 AM
                                                                                                                          Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRob Thorpe2009/08/27 04:51 AM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/23 08:07 PM
                                                                                                          Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureno thanks2009/08/23 08:44 PM
                                                                                                            Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/23 11:34 PM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureanon2009/08/23 08:46 PM
                                                                                          limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/20 06:59 AM
                                                                                            limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/20 08:27 AM
                                                                                              limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/20 07:55 PM
                                                                                                limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/20 10:22 PM
                                                                                                  limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/20 11:15 PM
                                                                                                    limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/21 03:47 AM
                                                                                              limits of sorting?2009/08/20 10:42 PM
                                                                                                limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/21 06:51 AM
                                                                                                  limits of sortingMichael S2009/08/21 07:11 AM
                                                                                                    limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/21 07:38 AM
                                                                                            limits of sortingdmsc2009/08/20 06:56 PM
                                                                                              limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/20 07:20 PM
                                                                                          limits of sortingRob Thorpe2009/08/20 07:09 AM
                                                                              limits of sortingAaron Spink2009/08/19 11:19 PM
                                                                                limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/20 12:55 AM
                                                          limits of sortingMichael S2009/08/18 06:12 AM
                                                        limits of sortinghobold2009/08/18 06:55 AM
                                                          limits of sortingrwessel2009/09/08 01:52 PM
                                                            maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyEmil2009/09/08 06:06 PM
                                                              maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyrwessel2009/09/08 09:04 PM
                                                                maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyhobold2009/09/09 03:56 AM
                                                              maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyRichard Cownie2009/09/09 08:10 AM
                                                                maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyhobold2009/09/10 04:39 AM
                                                                  maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyRichard Cownie2009/09/10 07:05 AM
                                                                    maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyPotatoswatter2009/09/10 12:23 PM
                                                                  maximal theoretical sorting efficiencydmsc2009/09/13 07:04 AM
                                                      limits of sortingPotatoswatter is back!2009/08/21 05:07 PM
                                                        indeed it doesn't succeed in partitioning at all, but you get the idea ;) (NT)Potatoswatter is back!2009/08/21 05:12 PM
                                                          indeed it doesn't succeed in partitioning at all, but you get the idea ;) (NT)Jouni Osmala2009/08/22 12:01 AM
                                                        limits of sortinghobold2009/08/22 06:25 AM
                                                          limits of sortingPotatoswatter2009/08/22 07:45 AM
                                                          limits of sortingDavid Kanter2009/08/22 09:16 AM
                                                            limits of sortingJouni Osmala2009/08/22 11:01 AM
                                                              Oops that was counting sort not bucket sort ;(Jouni Osmala2009/08/22 11:07 AM
                                                                close enough for my purposeshobold2009/08/22 01:15 PM
                                                            select vs. cmovehobold2009/08/22 01:25 PM
                                              How much IPCGian-Carlo Pascutto2009/08/18 02:25 AM
                                                How much IPCVincent Diepeveen2009/08/19 05:46 AM
                                                  How much IPC_Arthur2009/08/19 08:32 AM
                                              How much IPChobold2009/08/18 03:17 AM
                                                How much IPCMichael S2009/08/18 04:33 AM
                                                  How much IPChobold2009/08/18 06:35 AM
                                              How much IPC?2009/08/18 11:20 AM
                                                How much IPC_Arthur2009/08/18 11:33 AM
                                                  Nit pickingDavid Kanter2009/08/18 01:17 PM
                                                    Nit picking_Arthur2009/08/18 01:37 PM
                                                      Nit pickingMichael S2009/08/18 02:02 PM
                                                        Nit pickingS. Rao2009/08/18 04:02 PM
                                                          Nit pickinganon2009/08/19 02:03 AM
                                                    Nit pickingMichael S2009/08/18 01:53 PM
                                                      Nit pickingJasonB2009/08/18 06:16 PM
                                                  How much IPC?2009/08/18 01:37 PM
                                                    How much IPC_Arthur2009/08/18 03:23 PM
                                                      How much IPCMatt Sayler2009/08/18 05:09 PM
                                                      How much IPC?2009/08/18 10:59 PM
                                  nick's testcasea reader2009/08/17 04:47 PM
                                How much IPCTruePath2009/09/27 09:00 AM
                                  Explicit dependency chainsDavid Kanter2009/09/30 06:56 PM
                                How much IPCTruePath2009/09/27 09:00 AM
                              How much IPChobold2009/08/17 05:38 AM
                            How much IPCanon2009/08/16 08:59 PM
                            Speeing Up Single ThreadsTruePath2009/09/27 07:58 AM
                      How much IPCanon2009/08/15 07:01 PM
                        How much IPCEduardoS2009/08/16 06:06 AM
                        How much IPCsJ2009/08/16 08:48 PM
              Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/14 02:26 PM
                Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingLinus Torvalds2009/08/14 03:04 PM
              Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/21 02:43 PM
                Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingLinus Torvalds2009/08/21 03:08 PM
                  Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingLinus Torvalds2009/08/21 03:33 PM
                    Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/22 07:57 AM
                      Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJukka Larja2009/08/22 10:04 PM
                        Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/25 11:33 AM
                  Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensing?2009/08/21 11:51 PM
                    Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/22 09:56 AM
                      Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingLinus Torvalds2009/08/22 10:38 AM
                      Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensing?2009/08/23 03:05 AM
                        Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingEduardoS2009/08/23 03:28 AM
                          Programming Larrabee?2009/08/23 05:48 AM
                            Programming LarrabeeEduardoS2009/08/23 06:41 AM
                              Programming Larrabeeanon2009/08/23 07:29 AM
                            Programming LarrabeePotatoswatter2009/08/23 06:47 AM
                              Programming LarrabeeRichard Cownie2009/08/23 08:11 AM
                                Programming LarrabeePotatoswatter2009/08/23 11:49 PM
                              Programming Larrabee?2009/08/23 08:59 AM
                                Programming LarrabeePotatoswatter2009/08/23 11:44 PM
                                Programming Larrabeehobold2009/08/24 05:41 AM
                                  Programming Larrabeenone2009/08/24 07:15 AM
                                    Programming LarrabeeRichard Cownie2009/08/24 07:33 AM
                                    Programming LarrabeeJukka Larja2009/08/24 09:30 PM
                                      Programming Larrabeenone2009/08/25 01:53 AM
                            Programming Larrabeempx2009/08/25 08:16 AM
                  Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJoe2009/08/24 08:38 AM
            Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingGabriele Svelto2009/08/14 03:35 AM
              Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/14 08:18 AM
                Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingEduardoS2009/08/14 04:34 PM
                  Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/15 06:30 AM
                    Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/15 07:23 AM
                improving NetburstAM2009/08/15 01:36 AM
                  improving Netburstanon2009/08/15 07:10 AM
                    improving NetburstEuronymous2009/08/15 08:35 AM
                    improving NetburstMichael S2009/08/15 01:18 PM
                Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/21 03:10 PM
                  Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/22 09:46 AM
                    Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/25 09:39 AM
                      Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingslacker2009/08/26 04:50 AM
                        Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/26 08:12 AM
                        Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/26 08:45 AM
                          Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingsomeone2009/08/26 10:29 AM
                            Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingDavid Kanter2009/08/26 10:47 AM
          Not necessarilyDaniel Bizó2009/08/14 02:53 AM
        new POWER7 info ..Thu Nguyen2009/08/25 03:05 AM
          new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/25 05:47 AM
            new POWER7 info ..hobold2009/08/25 06:50 AM
              new POWER7 info ..G Webb2009/08/25 11:49 PM
            new POWER7 info ..mpx2009/08/25 07:36 AM
              new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/25 08:16 AM
                new POWER7 info ..Jesper Frimann2009/08/27 08:18 AM
                  new POWER7 info ..Linus Torvalds2009/08/27 10:53 AM
                  new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/27 12:00 PM
                    new POWER7 info ..a reader2009/08/27 03:21 PM
                      new POWER7 info ..David Kanter2009/08/27 08:32 PM
                        new POWER7 info ..a reader2009/08/28 07:45 AM
                    new POWER7 info ..hobold2009/08/28 04:00 AM
                      new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/28 05:51 AM
                        new POWER7 info ..hobold2009/08/28 06:44 AM
                          new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/28 07:10 AM
                        Non Autopar submissions for NehalemIlleglWpns2009/08/28 09:41 AM
                          Non Autopar submissions for NehalemDavid Kanter2009/08/28 10:07 AM
                          Non Autopar submissions for Nehalemsomeone2009/08/28 11:00 AM
          new POWER7 info ..mas2009/08/25 11:25 PM
            An EV8 lite? (NT)anon2009/08/26 08:21 AM
              An EV8 lite? => Piranha?M.2009/08/30 03:54 AM
            new POWER7 info ..Mark Roulo2009/08/27 05:51 AM
              new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/27 06:03 AM
                new POWER7 info ..a reader2009/08/27 08:55 AM
                  new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/27 10:58 AM
                    new POWER7 info ..a reader2009/08/27 03:11 PM
                      new POWER7 info ..Gabriele Svelto2009/08/27 11:17 PM
                      new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/28 04:27 AM
                        new POWER7 info ..a reader2009/08/28 08:07 AM
                        OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/28 10:15 AM
                          OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/28 10:39 AM
                            OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/28 12:55 PM
                              OOOE for low powerMark Roulo2009/08/28 02:16 PM
                                OOOE for low powerMark Roulo2009/08/28 02:44 PM
                                  Atom uarchDavid Kanter2009/08/28 07:19 PM
                                OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/28 07:07 PM
                              OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/28 03:18 PM
                                OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/29 12:55 AM
                                  OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/29 06:21 AM
                                    OOOE for low powera reader2009/08/29 08:14 AM
                                      OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/29 08:56 AM
                                        OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/29 09:08 AM
                                      OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/08/29 10:27 AM
                                        OOOE for low powera reader2009/08/29 03:50 PM
                                        OOOE for low poweranonymous2009/08/29 06:17 PM
                                          OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/08/29 11:07 PM
                                            OOOE for low powerJonathan Kang2009/09/01 04:44 AM
                                              OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/09/01 03:21 PM
                                                OOOE for low powerMark Roulo2009/09/01 04:53 PM
                                                  OOOE for low powerWilco2009/09/02 01:27 AM
                                                    OOOE for low powerMark Roulo2009/09/02 07:46 AM
                                                      OOOE for low powerWilco2009/09/02 03:52 PM
                                                    Define "emulate" (NT)Michael S2009/09/02 10:44 PM
                                                      Define "emulate"Wilco2009/09/02 11:33 PM
                                                        Define "emulate"none2009/09/03 03:46 AM
                                                          Define "emulate"Adrian2009/09/03 09:45 AM
                                                          Define "emulate"Wilco2009/09/03 01:20 PM
                                                            Define "emulate"none2009/09/03 09:41 PM
                                                              Define "emulate"Wilco2009/09/04 02:30 AM
                                                  low power ARM chipsMichael S2009/10/31 01:32 PM
                                                    low power ARM chipsGabriele Svelto2009/10/31 03:05 PM
                                                      low power ARM chipsMichael S2009/10/31 03:45 PM
                                                        low power ARM chipst2009/10/31 04:21 PM
                                    OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/29 09:07 AM
                                      OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/29 11:40 AM
                                        OOOE for low powera reader2009/08/29 04:03 PM
                                        OOOE for low poweranonymous2009/08/29 06:13 PM
                                          OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/30 06:35 AM
                                            OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/30 01:32 PM
                                            OOOE for low powerMatt Sayler2009/08/31 12:38 PM
                                        OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/30 11:07 AM
                                    OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/08/29 10:44 AM
                                  TTMMichael S2009/08/29 11:24 AM
                                    TTMFoo_2009/08/29 12:40 PM
                                      TTMMichael S2009/08/29 01:10 PM
                                        TTManon2009/08/29 06:33 PM
                                          TTMJukka Larja2009/08/29 08:49 PM
                                            TTManon2009/08/30 05:07 AM
                                              TTMJukka Larja2009/08/30 08:31 PM
                                                Area, power and AtomDavid Kanter2009/08/30 09:36 PM
                                                  Area, power and AtomMichael S2009/08/30 11:18 PM
                                                    Area, power and Atoma reader2009/08/31 07:44 AM
                                                      Area, power and AtomMichael S2009/08/31 11:19 AM
                                                        Area, power and Atoma reader2009/08/31 01:53 PM
                                                          Area, power and Atomanonymous2009/08/31 03:17 PM
                                                        Area, power and AtomGabriele Svelto2009/08/31 02:41 PM
                                                          64-bit disabled AtomsFoo_2009/09/02 03:38 AM
                                                            64-bit disabled AtomsRobert David Graham2009/09/02 11:56 AM
                                                              64-bit disabled Atomsanon2009/09/02 01:14 PM
                                                              64-bit disabled Atomsanonymous2009/09/02 03:30 PM
                                                TTMMichael S2009/08/30 10:49 PM
                                                  TTMJukka Larja2009/08/31 10:23 PM
                                            TTMPaul2009/08/30 05:38 AM
                                            TTMPaul2009/08/30 05:40 AM
                                        TTMMark Roulo2009/08/30 08:50 AM
                                          TTMPaul2009/08/30 08:54 AM
                                            TTMMark Roulo2009/08/30 09:16 AM
                                        TTMFoo_2009/09/02 03:31 AM
                                  OOOE for low powerRob Thorpe2009/08/30 08:19 AM
                                OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/08/29 10:16 AM
                                  OOOE for low powerJukka Larja2009/08/29 08:40 PM
                                    OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/08/29 11:04 PM
                          OOOE and cache/mem sizesRichard Cownie2009/08/28 04:30 PM
                            OOOE and cache/mem sizesLinus Torvalds2009/08/31 09:53 PM
                              OOOE and cache/mem sizesRichard Cownie2009/09/01 03:15 AM
                                OOOE and pipe length etc.AM2009/09/01 07:35 AM
                                  OOOE and pipe length etc.Jouni Osmala2009/09/01 07:57 AM
                                    OOOE and clock rateAM2009/09/02 12:34 AM
                                      OOOE and clock rateJouni Osmala2009/09/02 04:35 AM
                                        OOOE and clock rateMartin Høyer Kristiansen2009/09/02 05:19 AM
                                          OOOE and clock rateanon2009/09/02 08:43 PM
                                        OOOE and clock rateAM2009/09/03 01:52 AM
                                          OOOE and clock rateJouni Osmala2009/09/03 06:34 AM
                                            OOOE impactsAM2009/09/04 01:04 AM
                                              OOOE impactsDavid Kanter2009/09/04 09:12 AM
                                              OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/06 11:16 AM
                                                OOOE impactsAM2009/09/07 02:47 AM
                                                  OOOE impactsMartin Høyer Kristiansen2009/09/07 05:03 AM
                                                    Does IBM lie about PPC603 being OoO chip?AM2009/09/08 02:13 AM
                                                      No, but...Michael S2009/09/08 06:05 AM
                                                        No, but...hobold2009/09/09 04:09 AM
                                                  OOOE impactsJS2009/09/07 05:34 AM
                                                    Are Sandpile and others wrong about 0.28 um?AM2009/09/08 02:12 AM
                                                    OOOE impactssomeone2009/09/08 05:43 AM
                                                  OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/07 06:48 AM
                                                    OOOE costsDavid Kanter2009/09/07 11:07 AM
                                                    OOOE impactsAM2009/09/08 02:11 AM
                                                      OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/10 12:53 AM
                                                        OOOE impactsAM2009/09/11 03:35 AM
                                                          OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/11 07:38 AM
                                                            OOOE impactsAM2009/09/12 04:06 AM
                                                              OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/12 10:36 PM
                                                                OOOE impactsAM2009/09/14 03:39 AM
                                                                  OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/14 05:18 AM
                                                                    if-ex distanceAM2009/09/15 04:16 AM
                                                                    small addendumAM2009/09/19 02:54 AM
                                                                      small addendumJouni Osmala2009/09/19 08:51 PM
                                                                        small addendumAM2009/09/20 05:54 AM
                                                                          small addendumJouni Osmala2009/09/20 12:16 PM
                                                                            small addendumThiago Kurovski2009/09/20 03:51 PM
                                                                              small addendumJouni Osmala2009/09/20 08:21 PM
                                                                                small addendumThiago Kurovski2009/09/21 05:59 AM
                                                                            small addendumAM2009/09/21 02:14 AM
                                                                              small addendumJukka Larja2009/09/21 09:21 PM
                                                                                small addendumAM2009/09/22 02:01 AM
                                                                                  small addendumJukka Larja2009/09/22 10:31 PM
                                                                                    small addendumAM2009/09/23 07:35 AM
                                                                                      small addendumJukka Larja2009/09/23 09:31 PM
                                                                                        small addendumAM2009/09/23 11:13 PM
                                                                                          OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/09/24 08:39 PM
                                                                                            OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/25 04:18 AM
                                                                                              Back to bitsMichael S2009/09/25 06:14 AM
                                                                                                Back to bitsThiago Kurovski2009/09/25 10:24 AM
                                                                                                  Back to bitsWilco2009/09/25 02:18 PM
                                                                                                    Back to bitsThiago Kurovski2009/09/26 08:12 AM
                                                                                                  Back to bitsMichael S2009/09/26 07:54 AM
                                                                                                    Back to bitsThiago Kurovski2009/09/26 08:05 AM
                                                                                                      Back to bitsMichael S2009/09/26 08:16 AM
                                                                                                Agree, with very minor change.Jouni Osmala2009/09/25 08:37 PM
                                                                                                Back to bitsAM2009/09/26 05:16 AM
                                                                                                  Back to bitsMichael S2009/09/26 08:13 AM
                                                                                              OT metadiscussionDavid Kanter2009/09/25 11:23 AM
                                                                                                OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/26 04:55 AM
                                                                                              OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/09/25 10:33 PM
                                                                                                OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/26 04:50 AM
                                                                                                  OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/09/27 01:16 AM
                                                                                                    OT metadiscussionMichael S2009/09/27 03:58 AM
                                                                                                      OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/28 03:07 AM
                                                                                                    OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/28 02:43 AM
                                                                                                      OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/09/28 11:45 PM
                                                                                                        OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/30 02:13 AM
                                                                                                          OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/10/01 12:34 AM
                                                                                                            OT metadiscussionAM2009/10/01 03:05 AM
                                                                                                              OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/10/01 11:38 PM
                                                                                                                OT metadiscussionAM2009/10/03 06:19 AM
                                                                                                                  OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/10/04 02:38 AM
                                                                                                                    OT metadiscussionAM2009/10/04 07:27 AM
                                                                                                                      OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/10/04 10:48 PM
                                                                                                                        OT metadiscussionAM2009/10/05 06:13 AM
                                                                                                                          About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/05 10:36 PM
                                                                                                                            About teachingAM2009/10/06 03:37 AM
                                                                                                                              About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/07 02:15 AM
                                                                                                                                About teachinganon2009/10/07 11:39 AM
                                                                                                                                About teachingAM2009/10/08 02:11 AM
                                                                                                                                  About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/09 03:10 AM
                                                                                                                                    About teachingAM2009/10/09 04:40 AM
                                                                                                                                      About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/09 08:02 PM
                                                                                                                                        About teachingAM2009/10/09 10:24 PM
                                                                                                                                          About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/10 09:50 PM
                                                                                                                                            About teachingAM2009/10/12 01:02 AM
                                                                                                                                              About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/12 09:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                About teachingAM2009/10/13 03:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                  About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/13 10:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                    About teachingAM2009/10/14 02:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                      About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/14 07:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                        About teachingAM2009/10/15 03:22 AM
                                                                                                                                          About teachingSalvatore De Dominicis2009/10/12 01:23 AM
                                                                                                                                            About teachingDean Kent2009/10/12 11:25 AM
                                                                                                                                              About teachingSalvatore De Dominicis2009/10/13 01:11 AM
                                                                                                OT metadiscussionSeni2009/09/26 05:26 AM
                                                                                                  OT metadiscussionWilco2009/09/26 07:08 AM
                                                                                                  OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/09/27 01:18 AM
                                                                                                    OT metadiscussionMichael S2009/09/27 04:12 AM
                                                                                          small addendumJouni Osmala2009/09/24 09:04 PM
                                                                                            small addendumAM2009/09/25 04:04 AM
                                                                                            extra stage in EV6AM2009/09/26 05:29 AM
                                                    PPC603 does OoOEhobold2009/09/08 04:40 AM
                                                  OOOE impactssomeone2009/09/08 04:39 AM
                                                    EV6AM2009/09/09 03:33 AM
                                      OOOE and clock rateSeni2009/09/02 08:11 AM
                                        OOOE and clock rateLinus Torvalds2009/09/02 05:48 PM
                                          OOOE and clock rateanon2009/09/02 10:55 PM
                                            OOOE and clock rateWilco2009/09/02 11:44 PM
                                              OOOE and clock rateJouni Osmala2009/09/03 12:02 AM
                                                OOOE and ItaniumAM2009/09/03 12:27 AM
                                                OOOE and clock rateMartin Høyer Kristiansen2009/09/03 02:41 AM
                                              OOOE and clock rateanon2009/09/03 12:12 AM
                                                OOOE and clock rateWilco2009/09/03 01:10 AM
                                            POWER6 skewed pipelinePaul A. Clayton2009/09/03 10:22 AM
                                              POWER6 skewed pipelineAnon42009/09/03 06:00 PM
                                          OOOE and clock rateMr. Camel2009/09/03 02:40 AM
                                          OOOE and clock rateRichard Cownie2009/09/03 05:42 AM
                                  OOOE and pipe length etc.Richard Cownie2009/09/01 08:01 AM
                                    OOOE and pipe length etc.AM2009/09/02 12:32 AM
                                      OOOE and pipe length etc.Richard Cownie2009/09/02 06:49 AM
                                        LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/03 12:40 AM
                                          LRB choice of P54Gian-Carlo Pascutto2009/09/03 12:45 AM
                                            LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/03 02:18 AM
                                              LRB choice of P54Gian-Carlo Pascutto2009/09/03 02:55 AM
                                                LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/03 03:28 AM
                                                  LRB choice of P54Gian-Carlo Pascutto2009/09/03 04:29 AM
                                                    Amount of cache per core matters,and mem bandwith too (NT)Jouni Osmala2009/09/03 06:44 AM
                                                    LRB choice of P54rwessel2009/09/03 01:31 PM
                                                    LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/04 01:24 AM
                                                  LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/03 05:40 AM
                                                    LRB choice of P54a reader2009/09/03 08:20 AM
                                                      LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/03 04:57 PM
                                                    LRB choice of P54Jonathan Kang2009/09/03 01:30 PM
                                                      LRB choice of P54David Kanter2009/09/03 03:38 PM
                                                        LRB choice of P54Jonathan Kang2009/09/04 07:16 AM
                                                      LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/03 05:07 PM
                                                        LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/04 01:20 AM
                                                        LRB choice of P54Jonathan Kang2009/09/04 07:13 AM
                                                          LRB choice of P54Dan Downs2009/09/04 07:38 AM
                                                            LRB choice of P54Dan Downs2009/09/05 03:36 AM
                                                              LRB choice of P54Anon2009/09/05 01:44 PM
                                                          LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/04 11:12 PM
                                                    LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/04 01:18 AM
                                                      LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/04 07:18 PM
                                                        LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/04 10:53 PM
                                                          LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/05 03:06 AM
                                                            LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/05 08:14 AM
                                                  LRB choice of P54 - Layout?Anonymous2009/09/03 01:40 PM
                                                    LRB choice of P54 - Layout?anonymous2009/09/03 02:54 PM
                                                  LRB choice of P54Jukka Larja2009/09/03 08:58 PM
                                                  LRB choice of P54mpx2009/09/04 03:07 AM
                                          LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/03 01:02 AM
                                        OOOE and pipe length etc.Gian-Carlo Pascutto2009/09/03 12:40 AM
                                      Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Mark Roulo2009/09/03 03:26 PM
                                        Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Michael S2009/09/03 04:14 PM
                                          Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Mark Roulo2009/09/04 09:05 AM
                                            Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Jonathan Kang2009/09/04 09:59 AM
                                            Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Michael S2009/09/05 08:58 AM
                                            Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386James2009/09/07 02:15 AM
                                              Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Mark Roulo2009/09/07 06:44 PM
                                      OOOE and pipe length etc.Michael S2009/09/03 04:42 PM
                                        LRB coreAM2009/09/04 01:09 AM
                                          LRB coreMichael S2009/09/04 04:07 AM
                                            LRB coreanon2009/09/04 07:27 PM
                                              LRB coreMichael S2009/09/05 09:12 AM
                                                LRB coreanon2009/09/05 10:03 PM
                                                  reasons for split I/D L1 cachesMichael S2009/09/06 03:10 AM
                                                    reasons for split I/D L1 cachesanon2009/09/06 05:32 AM
                                                      reasons for split I/D L1 caches?2009/09/06 09:35 AM
                                                        reasons for split I/D L1 cachesmegol2009/09/06 02:39 PM
                                                          reasons for split I/D L1 caches?2009/09/07 03:20 AM
                                                            reasons for split I/D L1 cachesanon2009/09/07 05:25 AM
                                                              cache hinting?2009/09/07 06:10 AM
                                                                cache hintinganon2009/09/07 06:35 AM
                                                                  cache hinting?2009/09/07 08:10 AM
                                                                    cache hintinganon2009/09/07 08:49 AM
                                                                      cache hinting?2009/09/07 09:37 AM
                                              Split and unified cachesDavid Kanter2009/09/06 12:38 PM
                                                Split and unified cachesanon2009/09/06 10:15 PM
                                                  Split and unified cachesMichael S2009/09/06 11:40 PM
                                                    Split and unified cachesanon2009/09/07 01:24 AM
                                                  Split and unified cachesDavid Kanter2009/09/06 11:51 PM
                                                    Split and unified cachesanon2009/09/07 01:13 AM
                                            LRB coreAM2009/09/04 11:08 PM
                                            LRB coreLinus Torvalds2009/09/05 09:47 AM
                                          LRB coreDavid Kanter2009/09/04 12:23 PM
                                            LRB coreAnon2009/09/04 05:32 PM
                                              LRB coreDavid Kanter2009/09/04 09:15 PM
                                              LRB coreMichael S2009/09/05 09:21 AM
                              OOOE and cache/mem sizesa reader2009/09/01 08:19 AM
                                OOOE and cache/mem sizesRichard Cownie2009/09/01 08:43 AM
                      snapdraon?Michael S2009/08/28 05:10 AM
                        snapdraon?a reader2009/08/28 07:51 AM
                          Thanks (NT)Michael S2009/08/29 11:53 AM
                        snapdraon?Paul2009/08/28 12:12 PM
              new POWER7 info ..EduardoS2009/08/27 02:41 PM
                new POWER7 info ..Jesper Frimann2009/08/28 04:03 AM
                  Single threaded performanceDavid Kanter2009/08/28 09:52 AM
  Hot Chips XXI Preview onlinehobold2009/08/13 06:30 AM
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