About teaching

Article: Hot Chips XXI Preview
By: Jukka Larja (roskakori2006.delete@this.gmail.com), October 9, 2009 4:10 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
AM (myname4rwt@jee.male) on 10/8/09 wrote:

>>> I asked you to be fact-based since
>>> you keep insisting that I constantly
>>> interpret what others say in the way
>>> I want, IIRC. If that is meant to
>>> say that my interpretation is
>>> constantly wrong, please refer to
>>> the posts you mean.
>>> Do you realize that something like
>>> this can be simply insulting to read?
>> Yes I do and I'm sorry about that. But
>> just consider how disheartening and
>> embarrassing it is to me that I can't
>> explain myself well enough. I don't
>> like giving up.
> I'm not asking you for any explanations,
> just refer to the posts you're talking
> about. Of course, if you are simply
> being dishonest (as much of your writing
> suggests), it's understandable why you
> won't.

If I'm not going to explain or defend my position, what's the point of posting? For all I know, I may have misunderstood what you are asking or what I think you think I was saying.

Judging by how the discussion below is going, I don't have high hopes of our communication in general.

But since you insist, just take a look at your discussion about different Atom's availability with Ungo. It seems to me that you think he was making a claim with some concrete numbers from Intel and that his argument is faulty because he can't provide them.

> You probably miss something I
> consider obvious: professors are
> not perfect. This is simply
> ridiculous to expect that *anyone*
> teaching has very deep
> understanding of the subject; this
> is not true and never was.

Are you suggesting that _basic courses_ are often taught by someone without understanding of the subject? I don't know about "very deep". Generally speaking what a teacher needs is a deeper understanding than what students are supposed to achieve, but not necessarily "very deep".

By the way, how should someone without good understanding be able to compile collection of good sources?

> What's actually true is that course
> instructor can easily confuse
> students.

Yes, of course. If you are doing a bad job, results probably won't be good.

> Simple. Introduce a goal function that
> will make students work harder if they
> want higher points (e.g. speed of code
> in a course on numerical methods).

And how do you do this in group discussions or in any exercise, where there's no written document to grade? I mean for hundred(s of) students.

Why do you think even the classical exercises (which are apparently a subset of what I understand as an exercise) couldn't be graded with something else than passed/fail grades?

> Bad teaching is worse than lack of
> teaching. And it's much easier to
> settle on good references than
> find people with great depth of
> understanding across all topics of
> a course.

Well, we are using several lecturers on many courses, even the basic ones. That again costs more money, but the cost doesn't go up with number of students.

And I really don't understand how you can think that good references are easy to come up with by someone who doesn't have good understanding on subject.

> Yes, all I'm saying is providing a
> reading list is actually even
> cheaper. No salary, no overheads,
> and students can learn from texts
> written by the best minds.

Well, sure, and this is done too, although not often in my university. The problem is that even an accountant understands that this is hardly even teaching.

The great thing about lectures is that it is an easy way for a student to learn during longer period of time (several weeks or months). It takes a lot of discipline to study a text-book, if the only pressure is generated by a looming exam weeks or months in the future. This is also why I think voluntary exercises without direct benefit are pretty much useless. No one's interested in them until it is too late.

I know many people are able to do it. Good for them. I'm not very good at it unless the subject is really interesting. From my experience most people that attend the lectures think the same way.

And just to make sure: I do think that good source material is paramount, whether there is a lecture or not.

> Competition-based approach is known to
> work well across different cultures and
> educational systems; even a most basic
> grading system can be considered a form
> of competition.

So I think we disagree. I want to state again, however, that my problem is with pitting students against each other. I don't think basic grading does that.

> Actually one other thing I
> completely forgot to mention is
> playing. Learning by playing +
> competition, that's what
> education should be like, I
> think.

I consider exercises to be heavily on the playing side of things, compared to reading through some text-book or other material.

> The fun part was always doing it,
> because noone knew what the final
> results would be.

So how was the competition motivating, if there weren't any tracking going on? I don't consider it particularly competitive environment, if you just get results after the course. No one cares at that point (at least here, I don't know if your experiences are different).

> Anyway, I doubt that someone who feels
> like a loser would learn a lot from
> not competing, but doing exercises as
> you seem to suggest, I just don't see
> why it should be that way (was that
> your experience)?

Personally, I think competition is a great way to take fun out of anything. I like playing games, but I don't like being too serious about who's winning. What you described above ("noone knew what the final results would be") sounds to me like playing without real competition. Sure, that's fun, count me in.

That's what I think when talking about _good_ exercises. Not all exercises are great fun, but it should give you satisfaction and feeling of learning to get them done (or, if they are trivial for your level of knowledge, they shouldn't take too much time).

> As long as students are not
> excited about doing exercises,
> they hardly have high educational
> value (I personally never was).

Think about it this way: if you can't make exciting exercises about the subject, do you think any reading material is going to be much better?

Still, I think your meaning for word exercise differs from mine.

> This is what I said; judging whether
> a source is good or bad is simply
> beyond what a student can do.

Yes, though that's something one should learn during studying.

> And lecturing at the level of a good
> source (unless it's a form of
> parroting) is beyond what many
> professors can do. And understanding
> difficult subjects on the fly is
> really hard.

I'm certainly not suggesting that you subtitute good source material with lectures. I thought I was perfectly clear on that.

> No, you don't have to (and shouldn't)
> write anything yourself (unless you
> can really do it better than others),

Well, someone has to write the text-books :) .

> and compiling a good reading list
> takes expertise, not time.

Just how little time you think that takes? Sure, not as much as writing your own, but the motivation is also lesser. And it certainly takes more time than picking a text-book, if appropriate one is available.

> Well, I don't know about prestige,
> but selecting right sources to
> study is arguably the best thing
> a professor can do. If capable,
> of course.

It occurred to me, do we have a same meaning for professor? In Finland, all professors have at least a PhD (if you don't, your just university teacher or something like that). I think it's very sad if all a professor can do is compile a collection of source material, since he's suppose to be an expert on at least some part of the course.

Just wondering.

> Some will do it to defend their
> views, and believe me, those people
> don't need course points to do so.

Yes, some. Some don't need a university in the first place.

> Consider it from a different angle:
> if someone has no natural interest
> to what's being studied, will he
> really benefit more from
> "traditional" way of teaching
> (lectures + exercises)? Don't think
> so.

Absolutely will benefit. It's the old question about stick and carrot. If carrot isn't tasty enough, stick is better than nothing (of course, lectures are a form of carrot when compared to just reading by yourself. Exercises are a stick, if they are compulsory, or maybe a carrot, if they are voluntary but can raise your grade[1]. I don't think even the greatest minds on Earth can make exercises without some reward that large part of students would consider a carrot).

This is really basic, you know. I don't think anyone disputes the fact that some coercion is good in studying.

[1] This is, of course, an illusion. If sizable part of students get "bonus points" from voluntary exercises, grading will be skewed, and the situation is actually pretty much the same as with compulsory exercises. Students, however, like to be fooled and prefer bonus point system.

> Yes, and it may be helpful. However,
> there are lots of things when
> exercises (in usual sense: a
> gradable assignment to solve
> something) are simply uselesss.

Perhaps we should talk a bit more about what you mean by exercises in usual sense. I had ten years to form my mind about what an exercise is, and it seems it differs from yours.

For example, do you think my example of implementing email client can be called "an exercise", and if not, what word would you suggest instead?

> Consider the topic the discussion
> grew from in-order vs OoOE: what
> exercise can possibly make
> students look at the problem from
> many different angles?

What discussion can do that? Where do you think such discussion would take place in a university setting?

Students are more than welcome do discuss by themselves, if they wish. Many courses even have newsgroups, where course staff can chime in if need be. Very seldom does one see spontanios discussion on relevant topics.

> Of course knowledge is required, and I
> made it clear in the original post.
> Lectures in classical sense are hardly
> thought-stimulating; neither are
> exercises in the classical sense.
> There's just very little chance, from
> my own experience, that they can spark
> natural interest to dig deep into
> non-trivial subjects.

And just providing material will?

> We had a very interesting female
> lecturer who would deliver the
> "lecture" (which it's really not,
> in the classical sense at least)
> by first giving us several
> notions and definitions and then,
> instead of going on, she would
> start asking questions. Many
> seemed trivial, but only to find
> out, after she would point out
> something we were missing, that
> the answer is not that simple at
> all. The funniest thing about the
> course was that even after many
> "lectures" behind us, we were not
> always able to win this us-vs-her
> game.

I've seen this tried several times with bad results. I don't know whether it is Finnish CS students or simply the fact that when there are tens of people in a lecture hall, no one wants to answer. If lecturer persist, he can probably find someone to answer his questions. And next time, there's a lot less students attending (seen that too).

The less culturally dependent problem here is the size of class. With more than hundred students, it gets taxing to just answer the questions. It is also pretty clear, that at such setting it is easy for a student to just sit at the back of the class not participating. Also, few, or even one bad student with constant stupid questions or comments can cause much inefficiency with that style of lecturing (at least on normal lectures it is pretty easy to told someone to shut up).

Don't get me wrong. If that style of lecturing works, it is better or at least as good as just talking at the front, even for those students who don't participate. However, I don't see it having much benefit when the number of students is larger, or much change of succeeding, when the students are Finnish CS students.

> And instructor's skill is a
> variable thing -- that's the
> difference with good sources.

It's not either or. Skill of "source provider" is also variable. And once again, I don't consider lectures to be subtitute for good source material.

>> As I said before, I think you need
>> good sources no matter what.
>> "Thought-stimulating environment"
>> is a buzz word that for me has
>> pretty much zero concrete meaning.
>> Yes, students should think, that's
>> the point of academic studies. But
>> what exactly should you do, when
>> you have X euros, Y students with
>> Z level of knowledge, and are
>> constrained by government mandates
>> Q, T, E, C, D, and P.
> I think good sources are actually
> enough.

Well, you are wrong. They are only enough for the top students (which I think are a lot less than 20 percent. More like five, but twenty is quite enough to make my point).

> The concrete meaning is that
> non-thought-stimulating education
> won't get students too far.

Yes, but stating that is pointless unless you have a suggestion on how to achieve that.

>> For homework exercise, it is simple
>> to set the rules, if they are
>> needed. My point was, that I don't
>> see how you can set the rules for
>> discussion, unless your discussing
>> with (all) the students. Even then
>> it is harder to be fair, since
>> there are no written rules to refer
>> to.
> You seem to be somehow fixed in a
> rigid framework; our female lecturer
> didn't have any written rules, she
> had a knack of turning a lecture
> into a game that all of us enjoyed.
> Of course, we still had to hold exam.

For me what she did sounds like suffering. I don't see many (Finnish CS) students going to that sort of lectures or participating to discussion unless they are forced to.

For small, voluntary courses with motivated participants this would work. Partly, though, just because those who don't like that style could stay away.

> Good luck with real life.


>> Yeah, this was more of an example
>> of Finnish culture, which seems to
>> be a surprise for many visiting
>> lecturers. The point of few
>> minutes of discussion isn't really
>> to learn much. It's just to wake
>> people up. Such wakenings are
>> recommended by every expert, but
>> the basic ones like "some
>> discussion with the person next to
>> you" simply don't work with CS
>> students we have.
> Well, that is more of a
> contact-establishing thing, and I
> mean purely educational aspect.

I'm not quite sure what you mean with "contact-establishing thing". From educational aspect it is pretty important to understand that most people aren't able to stay alert through two hours of lecturing, if there aren't some sort of breaks.

> If cost is an important factor,
> then lectures should be simply
> dropped, there's just very
> little value in listening to
> someone compared to reading a
> good source.

I think you are wrong here. The students who participate on lectures won't (on average) spend the lecture time reading a good source, if lectures are dropped.

It depends on details, of course. How good or bad are the lectures or the sources, how interesting the subject matter. Also, of course, how much money does the lecturing take.

> Many problems seem much harder than
> they are, and I think anyone who
> seeks to do his best educating
> people can find significant freedom
> within limits imposed by
> administration and law.

Yes, and many problems are much harder than they seem. So far all your suggestion seem to miss the same problems most books about education do: what to do when students (on average) aren't too interested and there are lots of them.

I've actually have had a priviledge of discussing this issue with two experts on education (I don't remember exatly what they're background was, but it was academic). They acknowledged the problem and pretty much said that most of the suggested teaching methods can't be used in such situation. They actually tought that (compulsory) exercises are a great way to activate students since obviously you can't do that on the lecture very well.

They did have many suggestions on how to make mass lectures better and exercises more motivating, but couldn't really offer anything great that wouldn't have considerable cost. The most cost effective way is of course to hire great lecturer and great exercise designer, since you are paying pretty much the same regardless of performance :) .

We didn't discuss whether lectures should be dropped altogether. I don't think any of us had enough data on costs (real and the ones shown in budgetary calculations) to make any real argument.

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                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux culturePaul2009/08/22 04:25 AM
                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureGian-Carlo Pascutto2009/08/22 07:02 AM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux culturePaul2009/08/22 08:13 AM
                                                                                                          Windows vs Unix/Linux culturerwessel2009/08/24 03:09 PM
                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/22 05:28 PM
                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/22 06:22 PM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/22 06:52 PM
                                                                                                          Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/22 07:47 PM
                                                                                                        EncapsulationKonrad Schwarz2009/09/03 04:49 AM
                                                                                                          Encapsulationanon2009/09/03 10:05 AM
                                                                                                          Encapsulation?2009/09/03 11:38 AM
                                                                                                          EncapsulationAndi Kleen2009/09/04 01:41 AM
                                                                                                            Encapsulationanon2009/09/04 07:24 AM
                                                                                                            EncapsulationRichard Cownie2009/09/04 07:34 AM
                                                                                                              EncapsulationKonrad Schwarz2009/09/07 03:28 AM
                                                                                                                EncapsulationRichard Cownie2009/09/07 04:04 PM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux culture?2009/09/03 11:51 AM
                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureno thanks2009/08/23 10:36 AM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/23 04:23 PM
                                                                                                          Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/23 08:31 PM
                                                                                                            Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/24 12:10 AM
                                                                                                              Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJukka Larja2009/08/24 10:13 PM
                                                                                                              Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/24 11:35 PM
                                                                                                                Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/25 03:04 AM
                                                                                                                  Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/25 11:48 PM
                                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/26 08:28 AM
                                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/26 10:31 PM
                                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/26 08:43 AM
                                                                                                                    Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureanon2009/08/26 01:48 PM
                                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/26 03:28 PM
                                                                                                                      Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/26 08:06 PM
                                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRichard Cownie2009/08/27 03:44 AM
                                                                                                                          Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureRob Thorpe2009/08/27 05:51 AM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/23 09:07 PM
                                                                                                          Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureno thanks2009/08/23 09:44 PM
                                                                                                            Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureJasonB2009/08/24 12:34 AM
                                                                                                        Windows vs Unix/Linux cultureanon2009/08/23 09:46 PM
                                                                                          limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/20 07:59 AM
                                                                                            limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/20 09:27 AM
                                                                                              limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/20 08:55 PM
                                                                                                limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/20 11:22 PM
                                                                                                  limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/21 12:15 AM
                                                                                                    limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/21 04:47 AM
                                                                                              limits of sorting?2009/08/20 11:42 PM
                                                                                                limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/21 07:51 AM
                                                                                                  limits of sortingMichael S2009/08/21 08:11 AM
                                                                                                    limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/21 08:38 AM
                                                                                            limits of sortingdmsc2009/08/20 07:56 PM
                                                                                              limits of sortingRichard Cownie2009/08/20 08:20 PM
                                                                                          limits of sortingRob Thorpe2009/08/20 08:09 AM
                                                                              limits of sortingAaron Spink2009/08/20 12:19 AM
                                                                                limits of sortingJasonB2009/08/20 01:55 AM
                                                          limits of sortingMichael S2009/08/18 07:12 AM
                                                        limits of sortinghobold2009/08/18 07:55 AM
                                                          limits of sortingrwessel2009/09/08 02:52 PM
                                                            maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyEmil2009/09/08 07:06 PM
                                                              maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyrwessel2009/09/08 10:04 PM
                                                                maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyhobold2009/09/09 04:56 AM
                                                              maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyRichard Cownie2009/09/09 09:10 AM
                                                                maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyhobold2009/09/10 05:39 AM
                                                                  maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyRichard Cownie2009/09/10 08:05 AM
                                                                    maximal theoretical sorting efficiencyPotatoswatter2009/09/10 01:23 PM
                                                                  maximal theoretical sorting efficiencydmsc2009/09/13 08:04 AM
                                                      limits of sortingPotatoswatter is back!2009/08/21 06:07 PM
                                                        indeed it doesn't succeed in partitioning at all, but you get the idea ;) (NT)Potatoswatter is back!2009/08/21 06:12 PM
                                                          indeed it doesn't succeed in partitioning at all, but you get the idea ;) (NT)Jouni Osmala2009/08/22 01:01 AM
                                                        limits of sortinghobold2009/08/22 07:25 AM
                                                          limits of sortingPotatoswatter2009/08/22 08:45 AM
                                                          limits of sortingDavid Kanter2009/08/22 10:16 AM
                                                            limits of sortingJouni Osmala2009/08/22 12:01 PM
                                                              Oops that was counting sort not bucket sort ;(Jouni Osmala2009/08/22 12:07 PM
                                                                close enough for my purposeshobold2009/08/22 02:15 PM
                                                            select vs. cmovehobold2009/08/22 02:25 PM
                                              How much IPCGian-Carlo Pascutto2009/08/18 03:25 AM
                                                How much IPCVincent Diepeveen2009/08/19 06:46 AM
                                                  How much IPC_Arthur2009/08/19 09:32 AM
                                              How much IPChobold2009/08/18 04:17 AM
                                                How much IPCMichael S2009/08/18 05:33 AM
                                                  How much IPChobold2009/08/18 07:35 AM
                                              How much IPC?2009/08/18 12:20 PM
                                                How much IPC_Arthur2009/08/18 12:33 PM
                                                  Nit pickingDavid Kanter2009/08/18 02:17 PM
                                                    Nit picking_Arthur2009/08/18 02:37 PM
                                                      Nit pickingMichael S2009/08/18 03:02 PM
                                                        Nit pickingS. Rao2009/08/18 05:02 PM
                                                          Nit pickinganon2009/08/19 03:03 AM
                                                    Nit pickingMichael S2009/08/18 02:53 PM
                                                      Nit pickingJasonB2009/08/18 07:16 PM
                                                  How much IPC?2009/08/18 02:37 PM
                                                    How much IPC_Arthur2009/08/18 04:23 PM
                                                      How much IPCMatt Sayler2009/08/18 06:09 PM
                                                      How much IPC?2009/08/18 11:59 PM
                                  nick's testcasea reader2009/08/17 05:47 PM
                                How much IPCTruePath2009/09/27 10:00 AM
                                  Explicit dependency chainsDavid Kanter2009/09/30 07:56 PM
                                How much IPCTruePath2009/09/27 10:00 AM
                              How much IPChobold2009/08/17 06:38 AM
                            How much IPCanon2009/08/16 09:59 PM
                            Speeing Up Single ThreadsTruePath2009/09/27 08:58 AM
                      How much IPCanon2009/08/15 08:01 PM
                        How much IPCEduardoS2009/08/16 07:06 AM
                        How much IPCsJ2009/08/16 09:48 PM
              Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/14 03:26 PM
                Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingLinus Torvalds2009/08/14 04:04 PM
              Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/21 03:43 PM
                Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingLinus Torvalds2009/08/21 04:08 PM
                  Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingLinus Torvalds2009/08/21 04:33 PM
                    Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/22 08:57 AM
                      Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJukka Larja2009/08/22 11:04 PM
                        Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/25 12:33 PM
                  Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensing?2009/08/22 12:51 AM
                    Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/22 10:56 AM
                      Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingLinus Torvalds2009/08/22 11:38 AM
                      Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensing?2009/08/23 04:05 AM
                        Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingEduardoS2009/08/23 04:28 AM
                          Programming Larrabee?2009/08/23 06:48 AM
                            Programming LarrabeeEduardoS2009/08/23 07:41 AM
                              Programming Larrabeeanon2009/08/23 08:29 AM
                            Programming LarrabeePotatoswatter2009/08/23 07:47 AM
                              Programming LarrabeeRichard Cownie2009/08/23 09:11 AM
                                Programming LarrabeePotatoswatter2009/08/24 12:49 AM
                              Programming Larrabee?2009/08/23 09:59 AM
                                Programming LarrabeePotatoswatter2009/08/24 12:44 AM
                                Programming Larrabeehobold2009/08/24 06:41 AM
                                  Programming Larrabeenone2009/08/24 08:15 AM
                                    Programming LarrabeeRichard Cownie2009/08/24 08:33 AM
                                    Programming LarrabeeJukka Larja2009/08/24 10:30 PM
                                      Programming Larrabeenone2009/08/25 02:53 AM
                            Programming Larrabeempx2009/08/25 09:16 AM
                  Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJoe2009/08/24 09:38 AM
            Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingGabriele Svelto2009/08/14 04:35 AM
              Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/14 09:18 AM
                Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingEduardoS2009/08/14 05:34 PM
                  Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/15 07:30 AM
                    Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/15 08:23 AM
                improving NetburstAM2009/08/15 02:36 AM
                  improving Netburstanon2009/08/15 08:10 AM
                    improving NetburstEuronymous2009/08/15 09:35 AM
                    improving NetburstMichael S2009/08/15 02:18 PM
                Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/21 04:10 PM
                  Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensinganon2009/08/22 10:46 AM
                    Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/25 10:39 AM
                      Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingslacker2009/08/26 05:50 AM
                        Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/26 09:12 AM
                        Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingJonathan Kang2009/08/26 09:45 AM
                          Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingsomeone2009/08/26 11:29 AM
                            Power7 vs. single threaded performance and licensingDavid Kanter2009/08/26 11:47 AM
          Not necessarilyDaniel Bizó2009/08/14 03:53 AM
        new POWER7 info ..Thu Nguyen2009/08/25 04:05 AM
          new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/25 06:47 AM
            new POWER7 info ..hobold2009/08/25 07:50 AM
              new POWER7 info ..G Webb2009/08/26 12:49 AM
            new POWER7 info ..mpx2009/08/25 08:36 AM
              new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/25 09:16 AM
                new POWER7 info ..Jesper Frimann2009/08/27 09:18 AM
                  new POWER7 info ..Linus Torvalds2009/08/27 11:53 AM
                  new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/27 01:00 PM
                    new POWER7 info ..a reader2009/08/27 04:21 PM
                      new POWER7 info ..David Kanter2009/08/27 09:32 PM
                        new POWER7 info ..a reader2009/08/28 08:45 AM
                    new POWER7 info ..hobold2009/08/28 05:00 AM
                      new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/28 06:51 AM
                        new POWER7 info ..hobold2009/08/28 07:44 AM
                          new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/28 08:10 AM
                        Non Autopar submissions for NehalemIlleglWpns2009/08/28 10:41 AM
                          Non Autopar submissions for NehalemDavid Kanter2009/08/28 11:07 AM
                          Non Autopar submissions for Nehalemsomeone2009/08/28 12:00 PM
          new POWER7 info ..mas2009/08/26 12:25 AM
            An EV8 lite? (NT)anon2009/08/26 09:21 AM
              An EV8 lite? => Piranha?M.2009/08/30 04:54 AM
            new POWER7 info ..Mark Roulo2009/08/27 06:51 AM
              new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/27 07:03 AM
                new POWER7 info ..a reader2009/08/27 09:55 AM
                  new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/27 11:58 AM
                    new POWER7 info ..a reader2009/08/27 04:11 PM
                      new POWER7 info ..Gabriele Svelto2009/08/28 12:17 AM
                      new POWER7 info ..someone2009/08/28 05:27 AM
                        new POWER7 info ..a reader2009/08/28 09:07 AM
                        OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/28 11:15 AM
                          OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/28 11:39 AM
                            OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/28 01:55 PM
                              OOOE for low powerMark Roulo2009/08/28 03:16 PM
                                OOOE for low powerMark Roulo2009/08/28 03:44 PM
                                  Atom uarchDavid Kanter2009/08/28 08:19 PM
                                OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/28 08:07 PM
                              OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/28 04:18 PM
                                OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/29 01:55 AM
                                  OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/29 07:21 AM
                                    OOOE for low powera reader2009/08/29 09:14 AM
                                      OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/29 09:56 AM
                                        OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/29 10:08 AM
                                      OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/08/29 11:27 AM
                                        OOOE for low powera reader2009/08/29 04:50 PM
                                        OOOE for low poweranonymous2009/08/29 07:17 PM
                                          OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/08/30 12:07 AM
                                            OOOE for low powerJonathan Kang2009/09/01 05:44 AM
                                              OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/09/01 04:21 PM
                                                OOOE for low powerMark Roulo2009/09/01 05:53 PM
                                                  OOOE for low powerWilco2009/09/02 02:27 AM
                                                    OOOE for low powerMark Roulo2009/09/02 08:46 AM
                                                      OOOE for low powerWilco2009/09/02 04:52 PM
                                                    Define "emulate" (NT)Michael S2009/09/02 11:44 PM
                                                      Define "emulate"Wilco2009/09/03 12:33 AM
                                                        Define "emulate"none2009/09/03 04:46 AM
                                                          Define "emulate"Adrian2009/09/03 10:45 AM
                                                          Define "emulate"Wilco2009/09/03 02:20 PM
                                                            Define "emulate"none2009/09/03 10:41 PM
                                                              Define "emulate"Wilco2009/09/04 03:30 AM
                                                  low power ARM chipsMichael S2009/10/31 02:32 PM
                                                    low power ARM chipsGabriele Svelto2009/10/31 04:05 PM
                                                      low power ARM chipsMichael S2009/10/31 04:45 PM
                                                        low power ARM chipst2009/10/31 05:21 PM
                                    OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/29 10:07 AM
                                      OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/29 12:40 PM
                                        OOOE for low powera reader2009/08/29 05:03 PM
                                        OOOE for low poweranonymous2009/08/29 07:13 PM
                                          OOOE for low powersomeone2009/08/30 07:35 AM
                                            OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/30 02:32 PM
                                            OOOE for low powerMatt Sayler2009/08/31 01:38 PM
                                        OOOE for low powerDavid Kanter2009/08/30 12:07 PM
                                    OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/08/29 11:44 AM
                                  TTMMichael S2009/08/29 12:24 PM
                                    TTMFoo_2009/08/29 01:40 PM
                                      TTMMichael S2009/08/29 02:10 PM
                                        TTManon2009/08/29 07:33 PM
                                          TTMJukka Larja2009/08/29 09:49 PM
                                            TTManon2009/08/30 06:07 AM
                                              TTMJukka Larja2009/08/30 09:31 PM
                                                Area, power and AtomDavid Kanter2009/08/30 10:36 PM
                                                  Area, power and AtomMichael S2009/08/31 12:18 AM
                                                    Area, power and Atoma reader2009/08/31 08:44 AM
                                                      Area, power and AtomMichael S2009/08/31 12:19 PM
                                                        Area, power and Atoma reader2009/08/31 02:53 PM
                                                          Area, power and Atomanonymous2009/08/31 04:17 PM
                                                        Area, power and AtomGabriele Svelto2009/08/31 03:41 PM
                                                          64-bit disabled AtomsFoo_2009/09/02 04:38 AM
                                                            64-bit disabled AtomsRobert David Graham2009/09/02 12:56 PM
                                                              64-bit disabled Atomsanon2009/09/02 02:14 PM
                                                              64-bit disabled Atomsanonymous2009/09/02 04:30 PM
                                                TTMMichael S2009/08/30 11:49 PM
                                                  TTMJukka Larja2009/08/31 11:23 PM
                                            TTMPaul2009/08/30 06:38 AM
                                            TTMPaul2009/08/30 06:40 AM
                                        TTMMark Roulo2009/08/30 09:50 AM
                                          TTMPaul2009/08/30 09:54 AM
                                            TTMMark Roulo2009/08/30 10:16 AM
                                        TTMFoo_2009/09/02 04:31 AM
                                  OOOE for low powerRob Thorpe2009/08/30 09:19 AM
                                OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/08/29 11:16 AM
                                  OOOE for low powerJukka Larja2009/08/29 09:40 PM
                                    OOOE for low powerMichael S2009/08/30 12:04 AM
                          OOOE and cache/mem sizesRichard Cownie2009/08/28 05:30 PM
                            OOOE and cache/mem sizesLinus Torvalds2009/08/31 10:53 PM
                              OOOE and cache/mem sizesRichard Cownie2009/09/01 04:15 AM
                                OOOE and pipe length etc.AM2009/09/01 08:35 AM
                                  OOOE and pipe length etc.Jouni Osmala2009/09/01 08:57 AM
                                    OOOE and clock rateAM2009/09/02 01:34 AM
                                      OOOE and clock rateJouni Osmala2009/09/02 05:35 AM
                                        OOOE and clock rateMartin Høyer Kristiansen2009/09/02 06:19 AM
                                          OOOE and clock rateanon2009/09/02 09:43 PM
                                        OOOE and clock rateAM2009/09/03 02:52 AM
                                          OOOE and clock rateJouni Osmala2009/09/03 07:34 AM
                                            OOOE impactsAM2009/09/04 02:04 AM
                                              OOOE impactsDavid Kanter2009/09/04 10:12 AM
                                              OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/06 12:16 PM
                                                OOOE impactsAM2009/09/07 03:47 AM
                                                  OOOE impactsMartin Høyer Kristiansen2009/09/07 06:03 AM
                                                    Does IBM lie about PPC603 being OoO chip?AM2009/09/08 03:13 AM
                                                      No, but...Michael S2009/09/08 07:05 AM
                                                        No, but...hobold2009/09/09 05:09 AM
                                                  OOOE impactsJS2009/09/07 06:34 AM
                                                    Are Sandpile and others wrong about 0.28 um?AM2009/09/08 03:12 AM
                                                    OOOE impactssomeone2009/09/08 06:43 AM
                                                  OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/07 07:48 AM
                                                    OOOE costsDavid Kanter2009/09/07 12:07 PM
                                                    OOOE impactsAM2009/09/08 03:11 AM
                                                      OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/10 01:53 AM
                                                        OOOE impactsAM2009/09/11 04:35 AM
                                                          OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/11 08:38 AM
                                                            OOOE impactsAM2009/09/12 05:06 AM
                                                              OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/12 11:36 PM
                                                                OOOE impactsAM2009/09/14 04:39 AM
                                                                  OOOE impactsJouni Osmala2009/09/14 06:18 AM
                                                                    if-ex distanceAM2009/09/15 05:16 AM
                                                                    small addendumAM2009/09/19 03:54 AM
                                                                      small addendumJouni Osmala2009/09/19 09:51 PM
                                                                        small addendumAM2009/09/20 06:54 AM
                                                                          small addendumJouni Osmala2009/09/20 01:16 PM
                                                                            small addendumThiago Kurovski2009/09/20 04:51 PM
                                                                              small addendumJouni Osmala2009/09/20 09:21 PM
                                                                                small addendumThiago Kurovski2009/09/21 06:59 AM
                                                                            small addendumAM2009/09/21 03:14 AM
                                                                              small addendumJukka Larja2009/09/21 10:21 PM
                                                                                small addendumAM2009/09/22 03:01 AM
                                                                                  small addendumJukka Larja2009/09/22 11:31 PM
                                                                                    small addendumAM2009/09/23 08:35 AM
                                                                                      small addendumJukka Larja2009/09/23 10:31 PM
                                                                                        small addendumAM2009/09/24 12:13 AM
                                                                                          OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/09/24 09:39 PM
                                                                                            OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/25 05:18 AM
                                                                                              Back to bitsMichael S2009/09/25 07:14 AM
                                                                                                Back to bitsThiago Kurovski2009/09/25 11:24 AM
                                                                                                  Back to bitsWilco2009/09/25 03:18 PM
                                                                                                    Back to bitsThiago Kurovski2009/09/26 09:12 AM
                                                                                                  Back to bitsMichael S2009/09/26 08:54 AM
                                                                                                    Back to bitsThiago Kurovski2009/09/26 09:05 AM
                                                                                                      Back to bitsMichael S2009/09/26 09:16 AM
                                                                                                Agree, with very minor change.Jouni Osmala2009/09/25 09:37 PM
                                                                                                Back to bitsAM2009/09/26 06:16 AM
                                                                                                  Back to bitsMichael S2009/09/26 09:13 AM
                                                                                              OT metadiscussionDavid Kanter2009/09/25 12:23 PM
                                                                                                OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/26 05:55 AM
                                                                                              OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/09/25 11:33 PM
                                                                                                OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/26 05:50 AM
                                                                                                  OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/09/27 02:16 AM
                                                                                                    OT metadiscussionMichael S2009/09/27 04:58 AM
                                                                                                      OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/28 04:07 AM
                                                                                                    OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/28 03:43 AM
                                                                                                      OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/09/29 12:45 AM
                                                                                                        OT metadiscussionAM2009/09/30 03:13 AM
                                                                                                          OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/10/01 01:34 AM
                                                                                                            OT metadiscussionAM2009/10/01 04:05 AM
                                                                                                              OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/10/02 12:38 AM
                                                                                                                OT metadiscussionAM2009/10/03 07:19 AM
                                                                                                                  OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/10/04 03:38 AM
                                                                                                                    OT metadiscussionAM2009/10/04 08:27 AM
                                                                                                                      OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/10/04 11:48 PM
                                                                                                                        OT metadiscussionAM2009/10/05 07:13 AM
                                                                                                                          About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/05 11:36 PM
                                                                                                                            About teachingAM2009/10/06 04:37 AM
                                                                                                                              About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/07 03:15 AM
                                                                                                                                About teachinganon2009/10/07 12:39 PM
                                                                                                                                About teachingAM2009/10/08 03:11 AM
                                                                                                                                  About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/09 04:10 AM
                                                                                                                                    About teachingAM2009/10/09 05:40 AM
                                                                                                                                      About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/09 09:02 PM
                                                                                                                                        About teachingAM2009/10/09 11:24 PM
                                                                                                                                          About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/10 10:50 PM
                                                                                                                                            About teachingAM2009/10/12 02:02 AM
                                                                                                                                              About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/12 10:51 PM
                                                                                                                                                About teachingAM2009/10/13 04:06 AM
                                                                                                                                                  About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/13 11:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                    About teachingAM2009/10/14 03:36 AM
                                                                                                                                                      About teachingJukka Larja2009/10/14 08:19 PM
                                                                                                                                                        About teachingAM2009/10/15 04:22 AM
                                                                                                                                          About teachingSalvatore De Dominicis2009/10/12 02:23 AM
                                                                                                                                            About teachingDean Kent2009/10/12 12:25 PM
                                                                                                                                              About teachingSalvatore De Dominicis2009/10/13 02:11 AM
                                                                                                OT metadiscussionSeni2009/09/26 06:26 AM
                                                                                                  OT metadiscussionWilco2009/09/26 08:08 AM
                                                                                                  OT metadiscussionJukka Larja2009/09/27 02:18 AM
                                                                                                    OT metadiscussionMichael S2009/09/27 05:12 AM
                                                                                          small addendumJouni Osmala2009/09/24 10:04 PM
                                                                                            small addendumAM2009/09/25 05:04 AM
                                                                                            extra stage in EV6AM2009/09/26 06:29 AM
                                                    PPC603 does OoOEhobold2009/09/08 05:40 AM
                                                  OOOE impactssomeone2009/09/08 05:39 AM
                                                    EV6AM2009/09/09 04:33 AM
                                      OOOE and clock rateSeni2009/09/02 09:11 AM
                                        OOOE and clock rateLinus Torvalds2009/09/02 06:48 PM
                                          OOOE and clock rateanon2009/09/02 11:55 PM
                                            OOOE and clock rateWilco2009/09/03 12:44 AM
                                              OOOE and clock rateJouni Osmala2009/09/03 01:02 AM
                                                OOOE and ItaniumAM2009/09/03 01:27 AM
                                                OOOE and clock rateMartin Høyer Kristiansen2009/09/03 03:41 AM
                                              OOOE and clock rateanon2009/09/03 01:12 AM
                                                OOOE and clock rateWilco2009/09/03 02:10 AM
                                            POWER6 skewed pipelinePaul A. Clayton2009/09/03 11:22 AM
                                              POWER6 skewed pipelineAnon42009/09/03 07:00 PM
                                          OOOE and clock rateMr. Camel2009/09/03 03:40 AM
                                          OOOE and clock rateRichard Cownie2009/09/03 06:42 AM
                                  OOOE and pipe length etc.Richard Cownie2009/09/01 09:01 AM
                                    OOOE and pipe length etc.AM2009/09/02 01:32 AM
                                      OOOE and pipe length etc.Richard Cownie2009/09/02 07:49 AM
                                        LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/03 01:40 AM
                                          LRB choice of P54Gian-Carlo Pascutto2009/09/03 01:45 AM
                                            LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/03 03:18 AM
                                              LRB choice of P54Gian-Carlo Pascutto2009/09/03 03:55 AM
                                                LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/03 04:28 AM
                                                  LRB choice of P54Gian-Carlo Pascutto2009/09/03 05:29 AM
                                                    Amount of cache per core matters,and mem bandwith too (NT)Jouni Osmala2009/09/03 07:44 AM
                                                    LRB choice of P54rwessel2009/09/03 02:31 PM
                                                    LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/04 02:24 AM
                                                  LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/03 06:40 AM
                                                    LRB choice of P54a reader2009/09/03 09:20 AM
                                                      LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/03 05:57 PM
                                                    LRB choice of P54Jonathan Kang2009/09/03 02:30 PM
                                                      LRB choice of P54David Kanter2009/09/03 04:38 PM
                                                        LRB choice of P54Jonathan Kang2009/09/04 08:16 AM
                                                      LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/03 06:07 PM
                                                        LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/04 02:20 AM
                                                        LRB choice of P54Jonathan Kang2009/09/04 08:13 AM
                                                          LRB choice of P54Dan Downs2009/09/04 08:38 AM
                                                            LRB choice of P54Dan Downs2009/09/05 04:36 AM
                                                              LRB choice of P54Anon2009/09/05 02:44 PM
                                                          LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/05 12:12 AM
                                                    LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/04 02:18 AM
                                                      LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/04 08:18 PM
                                                        LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/04 11:53 PM
                                                          LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/05 04:06 AM
                                                            LRB choice of P54AM2009/09/05 09:14 AM
                                                  LRB choice of P54 - Layout?Anonymous2009/09/03 02:40 PM
                                                    LRB choice of P54 - Layout?anonymous2009/09/03 03:54 PM
                                                  LRB choice of P54Jukka Larja2009/09/03 09:58 PM
                                                  LRB choice of P54mpx2009/09/04 04:07 AM
                                          LRB choice of P54anon2009/09/03 02:02 AM
                                        OOOE and pipe length etc.Gian-Carlo Pascutto2009/09/03 01:40 AM
                                      Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Mark Roulo2009/09/03 04:26 PM
                                        Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Michael S2009/09/03 05:14 PM
                                          Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Mark Roulo2009/09/04 10:05 AM
                                            Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Jonathan Kang2009/09/04 10:59 AM
                                            Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Michael S2009/09/05 09:58 AM
                                            Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386James2009/09/07 03:15 AM
                                              Larrabee: Pentium vs 486 vs 386Mark Roulo2009/09/07 07:44 PM
                                      OOOE and pipe length etc.Michael S2009/09/03 05:42 PM
                                        LRB coreAM2009/09/04 02:09 AM
                                          LRB coreMichael S2009/09/04 05:07 AM
                                            LRB coreanon2009/09/04 08:27 PM
                                              LRB coreMichael S2009/09/05 10:12 AM
                                                LRB coreanon2009/09/05 11:03 PM
                                                  reasons for split I/D L1 cachesMichael S2009/09/06 04:10 AM
                                                    reasons for split I/D L1 cachesanon2009/09/06 06:32 AM
                                                      reasons for split I/D L1 caches?2009/09/06 10:35 AM
                                                        reasons for split I/D L1 cachesmegol2009/09/06 03:39 PM
                                                          reasons for split I/D L1 caches?2009/09/07 04:20 AM
                                                            reasons for split I/D L1 cachesanon2009/09/07 06:25 AM
                                                              cache hinting?2009/09/07 07:10 AM
                                                                cache hintinganon2009/09/07 07:35 AM
                                                                  cache hinting?2009/09/07 09:10 AM
                                                                    cache hintinganon2009/09/07 09:49 AM
                                                                      cache hinting?2009/09/07 10:37 AM
                                              Split and unified cachesDavid Kanter2009/09/06 01:38 PM
                                                Split and unified cachesanon2009/09/06 11:15 PM
                                                  Split and unified cachesMichael S2009/09/07 12:40 AM
                                                    Split and unified cachesanon2009/09/07 02:24 AM
                                                  Split and unified cachesDavid Kanter2009/09/07 12:51 AM
                                                    Split and unified cachesanon2009/09/07 02:13 AM
                                            LRB coreAM2009/09/05 12:08 AM
                                            LRB coreLinus Torvalds2009/09/05 10:47 AM
                                          LRB coreDavid Kanter2009/09/04 01:23 PM
                                            LRB coreAnon2009/09/04 06:32 PM
                                              LRB coreDavid Kanter2009/09/04 10:15 PM
                                              LRB coreMichael S2009/09/05 10:21 AM
                              OOOE and cache/mem sizesa reader2009/09/01 09:19 AM
                                OOOE and cache/mem sizesRichard Cownie2009/09/01 09:43 AM
                      snapdraon?Michael S2009/08/28 06:10 AM
                        snapdraon?a reader2009/08/28 08:51 AM
                          Thanks (NT)Michael S2009/08/29 12:53 PM
                        snapdraon?Paul2009/08/28 01:12 PM
              new POWER7 info ..EduardoS2009/08/27 03:41 PM
                new POWER7 info ..Jesper Frimann2009/08/28 05:03 AM
                  Single threaded performanceDavid Kanter2009/08/28 10:52 AM
  Hot Chips XXI Preview onlinehobold2009/08/13 07:30 AM
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