Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?

By: AM (myname4rwt.delete@this.jee.male), October 1, 2009 4:08 am
Room: Moderated Discussions
Ungo (a@b.c.d.e) on 10/1/09 wrote:
---------------------------
>AM (myname4rwt@jee.male) on 9/30/09 wrote:
>---------------------------
>>Ungo (a@b.c.d.e) on 9/28/09 wrote:
>>---------------------------
>>>AM (myname4rwt@jee.male) on 9/28/09 wrote:
>>>---------------------------
>>>>.. is something I've been wondering about. I mean, face it: to say that power efficiency
>>>>of available Atoms compared to available ULV Core2s is unimpressive is an undeserved compliment.
>>>>
>>>>Power efficiency of Atom's main bins (4W/core, 1.6 GHz, 512k/core)
>>>
>>>http://ark.intel.com/ProductCollection.aspx?familyID=29035
>>>
>>>Atom 230 isn't a 'main bin'. It's the bin for leaky parts which Intel salvages
>>>by selling them for use in desktops rather than the main volume driver for Atom (netbooks).
>>>
>>>The Z series Atoms are relatively recent developments, and are now likely the most
>>>representative.
>>
>>The "representative" Z series Atoms are not available from Intel. Period.
>
>You made that up. Admit it.

No, I simply checked Intel's price list and the availability column on the page above. I know there are products, that's why I said they apparently keep supplying several customers.

>Because even a little effort expended on your part could have turned up search results like this:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/yb2hx3u
>
>Or this:
>
>http://www.compulab.co.il/fitpc2/html/fitpc2-sb-datasheet.htm
>>
>
>Or, if you want something faster than 1.6 GHz:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/ycsabke
>
>>But if you're looking for the most common Atom bin by number of
>>>chips shipped to date, that would be the N270 (2.5W @ 1.60GHz), the backbone of the netbook revolution.
>>
>>Source?
>
>Just look up the specs of almost _any_ Atom netbook. If it's 1.6 GHz (and most
>of them are), it's either a N270 or (if introduced recently) a Z530.
>
>Here, let me help you with a link to an amazon search for N270 in the netbook category
>(Amazon's not a bad point of reference since they carry most if not all of the major netbook brands):
>
>http://tinyurl.com/y9d7xx2
>
>Then go and try to find any Atom 230 netbooks on Amazon. I dare you...
>
>(Hint: don't waste your time.)

BS. Show me numbers of chips sold (unless you simply made it up).

>>>>is clearly worse if you consider there have been 10W DC 1.6 GHz 3M Core2s (SU9600) for some time. And quickly checking for benchmarks vs Core2, e.g. I used this: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-atom-efficiency,2069-8.html
>>>
>>>>it appears low-power 2.5W bin hardly makes it a winner on the metric it was allegedly
>>>>optimized for. And power-efficiency at platform level -- just forget it.
>>>
>>>The THG article you linked to compares the performance of a 65W TDP 2.53GHz C2D
>>>to a 4W 1.6GHz Atom 230, not a 10W 1.6GHz SU9600 to a 2.5W 1.6GHz N270 as you imply.
>>
>>Oh, and what would be the performance of the 10W part? :)
>
>Why don't you tell me? It's up to you to support your argument. Don't ask me
>to do your legwork for you, it only makes you smell more trollish than you already do.

I don't expect the performance of lower-power bin of a Core 2 chip to be any different from that of higher-power bin of the same.

>>>But if you look at what is available for pairing with the more current Z series
>>
>>Available?! I don't see Intel listing a single Z-series Atom as available.
>
>You can't read?
>
>http://ark.intel.com/ProductCollection.aspx?familyID=29035
>
>"Status" column is the same for every Atom listed: "Launched". Yes, including every single Z series Atom.

Oh great, thanks for the opportunity to troll a little more then. :) Remember Pentium 4? Let's check the page: http://ark.intel.com/ProductCollection.aspx?familyID=581

And what do we see? Even the original 1.5 GHz Pentium 4 at the bottom of the page is "Launched" -- just like Z series Atom. :)

Wait, it's not just "launched", but listed as available at $129! Which of Intel's dealers has some in stock? :D

>>>Finally, I would note that there has been a rather large blind spot in much of
>>>this discussion: die size. The SU9600 has a die literally 4x bigger than Atom N270.
>>>(And 4x the TDP too.) Even after accounting for the fact that SU9600 has 2x as
>>>many processor cores, it's still not terribly surprising that 2x the die area and
>>>power budget results in a faster CPU core.
>>
>>You must have gotten my point completely wrong. That Atom loses in performance
>>in a big way is not surprizing; surprizing part has to do with it doesn't seem to
>>win in power efficiency either vs Core2.
>
>The methodology by which you reached this conclusion is terrible, IMO. You should
>have at least tried to find a comparison between SU9600 and N270, or tried to find
>separate benchmarks of similar methodology. (Actually, SU3500 would be a better
>choice of C2D than SU9600, so you could compare one core to one core.)

So what is it you don't like about the methodology? I didn't perform my own measurements, I rely on Intel's figures and measurements done by others, for me this is enough.

>Furthermore, why should you expect Atom to win in power efficiency? It was designed
>to hit a very low power target.

Hmm, how about because according to Intel it's what they made it for: "The Intel Atom Microarchitecture has been designed from the ground up to deliver high performance-per-watt efficiency"

http://download.intel.com/pressroom/kits/events/idfspr_2008/IDF_Day1_FactSheet.pdf

>That goal can be successfully achieved with good, bad, or average efficiency.
>
>>>The flip side: it's economical for Intel
>>>to sell the Atom at much, much lower prices.
>>
>>:) Oh give me a break, Banias derivative moved to 45nm and targeted for power efficiency
>>would have hardly had any problem fitting the space and 4W/core power envelope,
>>and I'm convinced would have looked *much* better on power-efficiency front combined
>with obviously higher performance.
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              Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/09/27 10:09 PM
                Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?Ungo2009/09/28 04:34 AM
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                    Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?anon2009/09/28 06:25 PM
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                      Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/09/30 10:12 PM
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                                          Do you?AM2009/10/06 10:30 PM
                                            Of course I do!anonymous2009/10/07 04:58 AM
                                              Thanks :-)AM2009/10/08 02:17 AM
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