Questions...

By: Wilco (Wilco.Dijkstra.delete@this.ntlworld.com), October 2, 2009 12:05 pm
Room: Moderated Discussions
Richard Cownie (tich@pobox.com) on 10/2/09 wrote:
---------------------------
>David Kanter (dkanter@realworldtech.com) on 10/2/09 wrote:
>---------------------------
>
>>The first issue is why do you need your own core? There are reasons I can imagine,
>>but in most cases it's probably not necessary. Especially for ARM which has a lot of cores floating around there.
>
>Historically, it seems to have been a question of building
>a faster core than any of the available ones (and I
>suppose by building it yourself you also ensure that
>ARM plc doesn't then sell it to your competitors).
>Thus we got StrongARM/XScale, and the 1.2GHz Marvell
>Sheeva.
>
>But I wouldn't rule out the "fun" explanation: every
>writer wants to write a novel; every software developer
>wants to write a compiler; every digital hardware
>designer wants to design a cpu core ... those factors
>of personal motivation can swing a close decision.

There is another possible reason: in the early days when ARM was small, having an architectural license would hedge against the possibility of ARM not developing suitable cores for their partners, or worse, being bought by a competitor and wound up. For some companies having a safety net might have been important.

>>I suspect the cost is closer to 20-30M. The real question is how much money is
>>the arch license compared to taping out the bloody chip.
>>
>>I think the rumor is that the high-end ARM designs are costing around $100-300M.
>>That's a lot of money...against which $10-30M may not be a big factor.
>
>Indeed. The design and verification effort for a
>superscalar OoO core is huge, and $30M for a license
>isn't big in relation to that, and helps to reduce some
>of the risks.

Developing a new architecture is as expensive as designing a CPU, and even large companies will not have enough expertise. The software and documentation cost is incredible, especially if you count everything involved, including having to redo things several times for research and evaluation prototypes and then the final version. Designing and implementing the ARM assembly syntax took at least a man year, and that was just the dot on the i.

>Also I don't know how the architecture license affects
>the per-chip royalty fees on the final product. If you're
>planning to make say 20M chips, and having your own core
>saves you $0.50 in royalties on each chip, then that's
>$10M saved. All those figures are entirely speculative.

I don't know whether an architectural license has any royalties at all, but for core licenses the royalties vary depending on the core, the volume and the type of license. You can get a cheap license with high royalties, or a more expensive license with lower royalties.

Wilco
< Previous Post in ThreadNext Post in Thread >
TopicPosted ByDate
Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Gabriele Svelto2009/09/26 01:46 AM
  Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9none2009/09/26 02:27 AM
    Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9jeff2009/09/27 04:06 AM
      Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Michael S2009/09/27 04:29 AM
        Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9none2009/09/27 05:01 AM
          Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Howard Chu2009/09/27 09:39 AM
      Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Wilco2009/09/27 06:03 AM
        Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9jeff2009/09/27 07:00 AM
          Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9a reader2009/09/27 07:17 AM
            Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9David Kanter2009/09/27 07:37 AM
              Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9a reader2009/09/27 07:46 AM
                Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Mat2009/10/01 12:04 PM
                  Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Wilco2009/10/01 05:09 PM
                    Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9anon2009/10/01 07:19 PM
            Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9RagingDragon2009/09/28 04:11 PM
          Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Linus Torvalds2009/09/27 08:05 AM
            OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwno thanks2009/09/27 03:47 PM
              OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwLinus Torvalds2009/09/28 05:22 AM
                OOO hw vs SW&in-order hw?2009/09/28 10:37 AM
                  OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwRagingDragon2009/09/28 04:22 PM
                  OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwMegol2009/09/29 03:35 AM
                OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwAnders Jensen2009/09/28 10:50 PM
                  OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwLinus Torvalds2009/09/29 06:44 AM
                    OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwMark Roulo2009/09/29 08:58 AM
                      OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwLinus Torvalds2009/09/29 09:30 AM
                        3- and 4-issue in-order CPUsMark Roulo2009/09/29 10:06 AM
                          3- and 4-issue in-order CPUsLinus Torvalds2009/09/29 10:29 AM
                          3- and 4-issue in-order CPUsGian-Carlo Pascutto2009/09/29 11:35 PM
                          3- and 4-issue in-order CPUsMichael S2009/09/30 01:01 AM
                    OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwmpx2009/09/30 03:14 AM
                    OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwPun Zu2009/10/02 01:44 AM
                      OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwnone2009/10/02 04:22 AM
                      OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwLinus Torvalds2009/10/02 06:11 AM
                        OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwa reader2009/10/02 08:30 AM
                          OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwLinus Torvalds2009/10/02 08:59 AM
                            MoorestownDavid Kanter2009/10/02 09:59 AM
                              What's the difference between Moorestown and Pine Trail cores?anon2009/10/03 07:37 PM
                              Moorestownnone2009/11/03 03:34 PM
                                MoorestownAnon2009/11/04 02:17 PM
                                  Moorestownnone2009/11/05 12:38 AM
                                    MoorestownDavid Kanter2009/11/05 03:45 PM
                                      MoorestownIntelUser20002009/11/06 03:17 AM
                                      MoorestownAnon2009/11/06 12:51 PM
                                        Moorestownnone2009/11/07 06:07 AM
                            OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwAnon2009/10/02 06:55 PM
                              Cluebat for graphicsDavid Kanter2009/10/02 08:19 PM
                                Cluebat for graphicsAnon2009/10/03 04:45 PM
                                  Cluebat for graphicsDavid Kanter2009/10/04 12:57 AM
                                    Cluebat for graphicsAnon2009/10/04 07:15 PM
                                      Cluebat for graphicsDavid Kanter2009/10/05 02:09 AM
                                        Cluebat for graphicsAnon2009/10/05 02:36 PM
                                          Cluebat for graphicsDavid Kanter2009/10/05 08:54 PM
                                            Cluebat for graphicsAnon2009/10/06 04:58 PM
                              OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwLinus Torvalds2009/10/03 05:58 AM
                            OOO hw vs SW&in-order hwslacker2009/10/02 08:11 PM
                            Linux graphics driversRagingDragon2009/10/03 07:27 PM
                              Linux graphics driversanon2009/10/04 06:15 AM
                                Linux graphics driversnone2009/10/04 09:12 AM
            Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9jeff2009/09/27 05:31 PM
        Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9someone2009/09/27 08:30 AM
          Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9none2009/09/27 09:09 AM
            Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Wilco2009/09/27 10:35 AM
              Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9someone2009/09/27 10:55 AM
                Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Wilco2009/09/28 01:08 AM
                  Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9someone2009/09/28 04:58 AM
                    Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9none2009/09/28 05:18 AM
                      Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9someone2009/09/28 06:35 AM
                    Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Wilco2009/09/28 07:25 AM
                      Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Michael S2009/09/28 10:02 AM
                        Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Wilco2009/09/29 12:35 AM
                    Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Chuck2009/09/28 06:15 PM
              samplesAM2009/09/27 10:20 PM
                samplesWilco2009/09/28 12:51 AM
                  samplesAM2009/09/28 03:16 AM
              Shrinks and process techDavid Kanter2009/09/29 12:22 AM
            Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9someone2009/09/27 10:42 AM
              Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9none2009/09/27 11:52 AM
              Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/09/27 10:09 PM
                Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?Ungo2009/09/28 04:34 AM
                  Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?a reader2009/09/28 09:15 AM
                    Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?anon2009/09/28 06:25 PM
                  Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/09/30 02:32 AM
                    Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?baxeel2009/09/30 07:25 AM
                      Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/09/30 10:12 PM
                    Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?Ungo2009/10/01 02:00 AM
                      Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/10/01 04:08 AM
                        Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?anonymous2009/10/01 04:33 AM
                          Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/10/03 06:24 AM
                        Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?Pun Zu2009/10/02 12:30 AM
                        Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?Ungo2009/10/02 12:11 PM
                          Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/10/03 06:22 AM
                            Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?Ungo2009/10/03 01:53 PM
                              Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/10/04 07:44 AM
                                Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?David Kanter2009/10/04 10:02 PM
                                  Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/10/05 06:18 AM
                                    Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?David Kanter2009/10/05 10:12 AM
                                      Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?AM2009/10/06 03:51 AM
                                        Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?anonymous2009/10/06 06:58 AM
                                        Do you have any proof?David Kanter2009/10/06 08:58 AM
                                          Do you?AM2009/10/06 10:30 PM
                                            Of course I do!anonymous2009/10/07 04:58 AM
                                              Thanks :-)AM2009/10/08 02:17 AM
                                                Thanks :-)anonymous2009/10/08 04:52 AM
                                                  Thanks :-)AM2009/10/09 02:13 AM
                                                    Thanks :-)anonymous2009/10/09 05:03 AM
                                                    Thanks :-)Foo_2009/10/09 05:47 AM
                                                      Thanks :-)AM2009/10/10 12:15 AM
                                            That's what I thought...David Kanter2009/10/07 08:00 AM
                                              That's what I thought...AM2009/10/08 02:26 AM
                                                That's what I thought...anonymous2009/10/08 05:02 AM
                                                  let's see...AM2009/10/09 02:09 AM
                                                    let's see...anonymous2009/10/09 04:43 AM
                                                      let's see...AM2009/10/09 04:52 AM
                                                        let's see...anonymous2009/10/09 05:15 AM
                                                          let's see...AM2009/10/10 12:18 AM
                Atom to stay in-oder or go OoO?someone2009/09/28 05:09 AM
          I call Trollhobold2009/09/28 03:51 AM
            I call Trollsomeone2009/09/28 05:15 AM
              OT: categories of motivation in a forumhobold2009/09/29 05:01 AM
          Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Michael S2009/09/28 09:43 AM
            Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9a reader2009/09/28 03:12 PM
              Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9someone else2009/09/28 11:25 PM
                Why Cortex A9?hobold2009/09/29 06:20 AM
                  Why Cortex A9?someone else2009/09/29 09:57 AM
                    Why Cortex A9?Richard Cownie2009/09/29 05:09 PM
                      Why Cortex A9?hobold2009/09/29 11:38 PM
                        Why Cortex A9?Richard Cownie2009/09/30 05:49 AM
                          Why Cortex A9?hobold2009/09/30 06:46 AM
                            Why Cortex A9?none2009/09/30 06:56 AM
                              Marvell Sheeva and plug computingRichard Cownie2009/09/30 08:03 AM
                              Why Cortex A9?Michael S2009/09/30 09:07 AM
                                Why Cortex A9?none2009/09/30 09:40 AM
                                Why Cortex A9?Gabriele Svelto2009/09/30 11:43 AM
                                  ARM architectural licenseDavid Kanter2009/09/30 04:57 PM
                                    ARM architectural licensea reader2009/10/01 06:25 AM
                                      ARM architectural licenseRichard Cownie2009/10/01 07:21 AM
                                Why Cortex A9?slacker2009/09/30 06:12 PM
                                  ARM architectural licenseDavid Kanter2009/09/30 06:16 PM
                                  Why Cortex A9?Michael S2009/10/01 06:45 AM
                                    Why Cortex A9?slacker2009/10/02 01:41 AM
                                      Why Cortex A9?Richard Cownie2009/10/02 09:28 AM
                                        Questions...David Kanter2009/10/02 09:56 AM
                                          Questions...Richard Cownie2009/10/02 10:29 AM
                                            Questions...Wilco2009/10/02 12:05 PM
                                          Questions...slacker2009/10/02 07:51 PM
                                        Why Cortex A9?slacker2009/10/02 07:44 PM
                            Why Cortex A9?David W. Hess2009/09/30 07:42 AM
    Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Gabriele Svelto2009/09/28 12:28 AM
  Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Wilco2009/09/26 06:38 AM
    Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Gabriele Svelto2009/09/28 12:38 AM
      Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Costanza2009/10/01 02:45 PM
    Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9sylt2009/09/28 04:54 AM
      Thoughts and questions on the Cortex A9Wilco2009/09/29 12:15 AM
Reply to this Topic
Name:
Email:
Topic:
Body: No Text
How do you spell avocado?