Intel has clarified the benefits of not using SMT

By: Adrian (a.delete@this.acm.org),
Room: Moderated Discussions

In the press kit for the Lunar Lake launch, Intel has stated clearly which are the benefits of removing SMT, while in the previous presentations the numbers were somewhat ambiguous.


According to Intel, if the comparison is made between two cores having the same IPC as Lion Cove, one with SMT and the other without SMT, the core without SMT has a smaller area by 10%.

Moreover, when the powers consumed by the two cores are compared, when running a single thread (i.e. at equal performance), the core without SMT consumes a power smaller by 15% (because the switched electrical capacitance is diminished in this ratio).


Obviously, when running a multithreaded application, if the SMT gain for that application happens to be over 15%, the performance per watt would be better for a core with SMT and a SMT performance gain over 10% would be enough to provide a better performance per area.

In another interview with an Intel SoC architect, he has corroborated the numbers that I have seen in my own tests, i.e. he has said that in older CPUs there were higher SMT performance gains, up to 30%, while in modern CPUs (i.e. with better OoOE) the SMT performance gains are smaller, up to about 20%.

Therefore for servers SMT still improves the multithreaded performance per area and per power.

On the other hand, for a low-power hybrid CPU, the single-thread performance per area and power is better without SMT, while the multithreaded performance can be improved much more than by adding SMT when, at equal area, one P-core is replaced by 3 E-cores.


I believe that the most complete version of the Intel Press Kit for the Lunar Lake launch is the one at:

https://wccftech.com/intel-core-ultra-200v-lunar-lake-launch-cpu-gpu-ai-leadership-over-qualcomm-amd-much-better-battery-life/

The numbers for SMT are in the appendix, at claim 22.
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Intel has clarified the benefits of not using SMTAdrian
  Intel has clarified the benefits of not using SMTAndrey
    Intel has clarified the benefits of not using SMTAdrian
      Intel has clarified the benefits of not using SMTAndrey
        Intel has clarified the benefits of not using SMTAdrian
        Intel has clarified the benefits of not using SMTDoug S
        Intel has clarified the benefits of not using SMTEric Fink
  Benefit of SMT is highly variableMarty P.
    Benefit of SMT is highly variableAdrian
      P-core to P-core "latency"Marty P.
        P-core to P-core "latency"Adrian
        P-core to P-core "latency"Jukka Larja
          P-core to P-core "latency"Marty P.
            P-core to P-core "latency"Jukka Larja
        why one more thread without SMT helps moreHeikki Kultala
          why one more thread without SMT helps moreMarty P.
          why one more thread without SMT helps moreDoug S
            8 P + 32 E is a terrible ideaMarty P.
              8 P + 32 E is a terrible ideaAdrian
                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaMarty P.
                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaAdrian
                    8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaMarty P.
                      8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaAdrian
                        8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaanon
                        8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaMarty P.
                          8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaAdrian
                            8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                              8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaMarty P.
                                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaMarty P.
                                    8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaSimon Farnsworth
                                      8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaMarty P.
                                        8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                                          8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaMarty P.
                                            8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaDoug S
                                              8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaanon
                                                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                                    framerate vs image quality preferencezzyzx
                                                      framerate vs image quality preferenceJames T
                                                        framerate vs image quality preferencezzyzx
                                                          framerate vs image quality preferenceJukka Larja
                                                            framerate vs image quality preferencezzyzx
                                                            framerate vs image quality preferenceiz
                                                              framerate vs image quality preferenceJukka Larja
                                                                framerate vs image quality preferenceiz
                                                                  framerate vs image quality preferencezzyzx
                                                                    framerate vs image quality preferenceJukka Larja
                                                                  framerate vs image quality preference---
                                                                    framerate vs image quality preferenceJukka Larja
                                                                    framerate vs image quality preferenceiz
                                                                      framerate vs image quality preferencezzyzx
                                                                        framerate vs image quality preferenceiz
                                                                          framerate vs image quality preferencezzyzx
                                                                            framerate vs image quality preferenceiz
                                                                              framerate vs image quality preferencezzyzx
                                                                                framerate vs image quality preferenceJukka Larja
                                                                                  framerate vs image quality preferencezzyzx
                                                        framerate vs image quality preferenceDavid Hess
                                                          framerate vs image quality preferenceJukka Larja
                                                            framerate vs image quality preferenceDavid Hess
                                                              framerate vs image quality preferenceJukka Larja
                                                      framerate vs image quality preferenceJukka Larja
                                                        framerate vs image quality preferencezzyzx
                                                          framerate vs image quality preferenceJukka Larja
                                                            framerate vs image quality preferencezzyzx
                                                    8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaanon
                                                      8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                                        8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaanon
                                                          8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaBrett
                                                            8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaanon
                                                              The 'bot' in the email might be a hint... (NT)iz
                                                                The 'bot' in the email might be a hint...Brett
                                                                  Asking for raises doesn't workiz
                                                                    Asking for raises doesn't workBrett
                                                                      Asking for raises doesn't workanonymou5
                                                                      And so modest too! (NT)Anon
                                                      8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideazzyzx
                                                        8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaanon
                                              8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaMarty P.
                                                Meteor Lake also has "Low Power" efficiency cores ...Mark Roulo
                                                  Meteor Lake also has "Low Power" efficiency cores ...Marty P.
                                                  Meteor Lake also has "Low Power" efficiency cores ...Adrian
                                                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaAnon
                                                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaMarty P.
                                                    8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaAdrian
                                                      SIMD Performance of Lion Cove != SkymontMarty P.
                                                        SIMD Performance of Lion Cove != SkymontAdrian
                                                          Possible explanation for equal number of FMA and FADD in microarchitectureMarty P.
                                                            Possible explanation for equal number of FMA and FADD in microarchitectureAdrian
                                                              This is not a compuler problem. This is a standardization problemHeikki Kultala
                                                                This is not a compuler problem. This is a standardization problemAdrian
                                                                  This is not a compuler problem. This is a standardization problemRichC
                                                                    This is not a compuler problem. This is a standardization problemAdrian
                                                                      Need to disable fusing of multiply-add ?Marty P.
                                                                        Need to disable fusing of multiply-add ?Adrian
                                                                          Need to disable fusing of multiply-add ?Marty P.
                                                                        There are LOTS of soituations whenr bit-exactness is a mustHeikki Kultala
                                                                          There are LOTS of soituations whenr bit-exactness is a mustnathan
                                                                            bit-exactnessRichC
                                                                            bit-exactnessRichC
                                                                      This is not a compuler problem. This is a standardization problemRichC
                                                                        Also high-level languages need to produce bit-exact resultsHeikki Kultala
                                                                          Bit-exact results depends on hardware firstnathan
                                                                          Also high-level languages need to produce bit-exact resultsRichC
                                              8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                                                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaDoug S
                                                how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedlyDummond D. Slow
                                                  how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedly---
                                                    how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedly---
                                                      how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedlyMichael S
                                                        how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedly---
                                                          how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedlyUngo
                                                          how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedlyiz
                                                            how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedlyAdrian
                                                            how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedlyDoug S
                                                              how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedlyAnon
                                                                how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedlynathan
                                                            how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedlyDummond D. Slow
                                                        how E-Cores were and are marketed, supposedlyDummond D. Slow
                                                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaSeni
                                                  Intel's marketingAdrian
                                                    Intel's marketingSeni
                                                      Intel's marketingAdrian
                                                        Intel's marketingSeni
                                                          Intel's marketingAdrian
                                                            Intel's marketingSeni
                                                              Intel Lunar Lake ≈ Apple M3Marty P.
                                                                I agree that this seems to be the plan: Intel Lunar Lake ≈ Apple M3 (NT)Adrian
                                              E cores are efficient -- just not on Alder Lakenicball
                                            8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                              8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaSimon Farnsworth
                                                Control divergence and GPUsPaul A. Clayton
                                                  Control divergence and GPUs---
                                                    Control divergence and GPUsAnon
                                                      PDF for Apple GPUMarty P.
                                                        PDF for Apple GPU---
                                                          PDF for Apple GPUBjörn Ragnar Björnsson
                                                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                              8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                                                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                                                    8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                                                    8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaAnon
                                            8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                                              8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaBrett
                                                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaDoug S
                                                    iPhone ownership cost != purchase cost.Brett
                                                      iPhone ownership cost != purchase cost.Jukka Larja
                                                    8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaDummond D. Slow
                                                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                                                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                                                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaAnon
                                                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                                    8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideanathan
                                              8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaYump
                                      8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaAnon
                                        8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaMarty P.
                                          8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaAnon
                                          Desktop market is a dying market.Anon
                                          8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
                                            8 P + 24 E is also a terrible idea---
                                              8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaSimon Farnsworth
                                                8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideablaine
                              8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaDoug S
                  8 P + 24 E is also a terrible ideaJukka Larja
              8 P + 32 E is a great ideaWes Felter
                8 P + 32 E is a great ideaJukka Larja
                  8 P + 32 E is a great ideaAdrian
                    8 P + 32 E is a great ideaJukka Larja
                      8 P + 32 E is a great ideaAnon4
                        8 P + 32 E is a great ideaJukka Larja
                          8 P + 32 E is a great ideaAnon4
                            8 P + 32 E is a great ideaJukka Larja
                      8 P + 32 E is a great ideaYump
                  8 P + 32 E is a great ideaWilliam C
                    8 P + 32 E is a great ideaJukka Larja
                      Intel On Demand Consumption ModelWilliam C
                        Intel On Demand Consumption ModelJukka Larja
                          Intel On Demand Consumption ModelWilliam C
                            Intel On Demand Consumption Modelsomeone
                            Intel On Demand Consumption ModelJukka Larja
                              Intel On Demand Consumption Modelblaine
                  8 P + 32 E is a great ideaYump
  Intel has clarified the benefits of not using SMTGionatan Danti